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Scorpion
Master of Mandrakes
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PostSubject: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 10:10

Is it me or are the scourges one of the coolest models out there... I have 10 of them and I want to use them. The problem is... well... they kinda suck. or do they?

I would like to have a discussion on how I can make them work. So I would like to hear from people that actually use them. How do you use them? Why? What setup? How many? What strategy? Deep striking them?

I have read pretty much everything that there is to read about them on this site and others. I see why they are not getting choosed over jetbikes and beasts. They rock in 6th, allthough they have their flaws. Jetbikes hate flamers, CC and weapons with the ignore cover rule. Beast need the Baron to get grenades. On the other hand I can still see lists out there with scourges on. So thats why I want to hear from people that use them. I truly believe that there must be a way of make them useful .... even amazing.

Scourges are jump infantry and have access to Haywire which are nice vs vihicles. They have plasma grrenades as well. They have carbines which can be devastating vs infantry (specially vs doomed infantry). They also have access to heat lances (they need to get close - deep striking?) They also have armour save of 4. (the only one in the army). 6+ inv. save. And maybe even FnP if they start with a heamon. On the other hand they only have T3. Instant kill danger!! I guess inv save of 6 is better than nothing.

The other thing I am worried about is their cost. 22 points. Ouch. Same as the BIkes. 2 special weapons for 5 models. Bikes 1 in 3. Hmmm.... But do they need the special weapons ?

The Baron could start with them , giving stealth and a Heamon could give them FnP. Too expencive? And then what do we get?

What size army are they best at? Small lists at 1000 points? 1500? 2000?

I guess all that needs playtesting and since I dont get many games at the moment I turn to you and your experiences with them.

So this is why this topic is more a question to those of you that uses them than to others that dont. I want to base this topic on experiences and not on theories.

thx


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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 12:43

I love the scourges as well but never really get a chance to use them, I used them twice yesterday, the first game (They had shardcarbines and heatlances) the 5 in the squad managed to take out an 8 man marine squad and a predator so that wasn't to bad- just flew them behind the Warrior raiders, seemed to work. The next game they died first turn when an AP 4 large blast template scattered on to them killing all 110+ points of models. And thats the problem with them. They are very fragile, not fast enough and expensive- but I still want to use them Sad

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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 12:55

Ouch... I guess that sort of things happen. FnP may could save some of them. Nice job in the 1st game. Seems that they did their job very well. Anyhow I like the idea of having them "run" behind a raider. Giving them the only kind of save they dont have, cover. I guess that the Baron could help the work that way. Even though hiding behind a wall of paper doesn't sound very safe. Did they survive the first game? And how big were the games?
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 13:04

First game I think 2 survived- 2000 points- FnP did help here but still, if they get hit they fall like flys
Second game they were against a very annoying Imperial Guard Vendetta/Manticore/Demolisher/Punisher spam list so not much was going to survive anyway!
(This was a 3000 point game, two 1500 point lists on either side i.e a 2v2 with 2 people)

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immelman
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 15:46

I love the models I think they look awesome, I love the fluff about them even more, but to me they are not very usable as they die on me too damn quickly. I get to use them the round they come in via DS most of the time shoot something then they die.

For me Jump Infantry is a hardcore assault unit. Kind of like ASM give those guys lighting claws and watch them tear a hole in any unit.

But I do not hold that against them, they are not built that way they are light infantry which is fine and I would still like to use Scourges. So lets see what can they offer me, they can deep strike which is very good. They have a fine selection of ranged weapons to choose from. My personal favorite (with the changes in 6th ED) being the haywire blaster.

But the price is kind of steep. Specially when there is another unit out there that can do what they do for the same cost. Also this unit happens to be more versatile being able to inflict wounds on infantry or blow up vehicles while being more survivable. As I am sure you guessed, I am talking about Reavers. Since both these units are vying for the same fast slot I am more inclined to go with the more versatile and survivable Reavers.

I do not want to discourage you from using scourges, simply explaining why I do not bother with them. If they had Hit and Run like hellions or could be equipped with Liquifiers like Wracks they would be a better option. They would be a wild card up my sleeve, just imagine what you could do with these two options on jump infantry...

But things being as they are I will not be employing their services...
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alexwellace
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 16:20

I think you should let scourges do what they are made to do, AI. 2 splinter cannons and 3 shard carbines puts out 17 shots on the move, 21 staying still. If my mathhammer is right that means about 6 wounds moving and 7 staying still on average rolls. meaning at least 2 dead MEQ either way. But im talking ork/IG/tyranid blobs and scourges shred them better then anything else save missiles because of the amount of wounds your putting out, not to mention how fun it is to roll a boatload of dice Smile

2 units of 5 means that not many points and they are still really annoying and carn't be ignored vs an inf army and god help any monsterous creatures. Never deep strike, your fast and there is nowhere you couldn't be near by the time you deep strike and you could of been shooting. keep it cheap and get your points back, even termies will roll those ones if forced to roll enougth.
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NigelChrome
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 18:07

I'm far from an expert, but I've tried Scourges in both a WWP list (5 with 2 heat lances) and in a hybrid list (5 with 2 haywire blasters). Of these two set-ups, I've found that the haywire blasters are more useful overall, since they can make better use of cover and distance to protect themselves. I've had very good luck pairing them up on a flank with a HWB Talos: the additional twin-linked haywire shot often makes a huge difference, and the Talos can help provide cover for your fragile Scourges as it advances (or vice versa, if necessary). It may not be the most effective or efficient, but it's a reasonable way to use some very cool models!
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 18:36

I've tried many configurations of Scourges and have found the best special weapons to be the handy blaster.
They have access to cool toys like haywire and heat lance but let me share my pains with both of those

Heatlance: you move 12" and you really need to be within 9" to get the melta bonus to really do anything to a vehicle and unlike Reavers you don't have the 2d6" move away afterwards so your stuck moving this increadably fragile unit very close to your opponent wherein the blaster would let you fire from 18" which is a little bit more breathing room. You can still use this weapon against MEQ and TEQ effectively at 18" which is great but it doesn't double out 4T marines and cancel FNP like the blaster does.

Haywire: if you run 10 scourges with 4 of thease then you can safely assume you can wreck a 3 hull point vechicle every turn, this is increadably powerful, but with just 2 it's really lack luster against a vehicle and even with 4 it's fairly worthless againsts MEQ or TEQ making all those shardcarbines go mostly un-used (even though you paid for them!)

Blasters on the other hand 18" threat range, decent against vehicles and great for MEQ, TEQ and Bikers

Good configuration for me has been 5 with 2 blasters for 140 points
Best Configuration 10 with 4 blasters with the Baron (as suggested on this board by Blind Baku)

The 10 with 4 blasters and the Baron has hit and run with the re-roll (since baron has the highest init), has stealth for some extra protection, gets an amazing overwatch with 20 poison shots (and you opponent knows your just gonna run away after the first round mwahaha) and stays as a jump unit. The down side is your spending 385 points for this unit and it's not a death star by any stretch of the imagination. It's only scoring 1/6 missions, and two units of blaster born would be cheaper plus with blaster born you can point the venom shots at infantry and the blasters and a different target. Although they are more survivable than blaster born squads and better for 2/6 missions (purge the alien sux when you one melta shot causes you to lose 2 units).

I've used the 10 man with 4 blasters + Baron in 2 games and they survived both games and in 1 game took down 2 assualt squads and in the other they destroyed 3 razorbacks and evaded the retaliation of the troops inside (actually killed a couple with over watch then ran away causing angry glares from my opponent).

EDIT - I haven't tried the Splinter Cannon idea, but that does sound worth while as a pure AI

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 19:30

Scourges are in a weird postion in our codex. They are made for AI, but comparitively in points a venom is better. Their AT is decent, but then your wasting those amazing shard carbines.

Then their profile is weird. They are T3 w/ 4+/6++, which is nice, but then you compare them to reavers, who on the move are T4 w/ 4+ coversave. Definately surperior in terms of defense. That isnt including mobility, AT capacity, and AI potential.

personally I would say either run them w/ haywire blasters and use them as a mop up unit, or DS them with heat lances and use them as sucicide units. Save the AI for venoms

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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 19:39

So the Baron joining the unit can be the way to do it? What about giving the unit a Heamon to get that pain token? That would increase their survivalbility.
Hit n Run can actually make them into a very good squad. I usually run a Farseer with prescience. Iam thinking that the Baron unit + pain token that get prescience can do a lot of damage. Reroll to shoot in assault, reroll to hit in the fighting, reroll to hit again in overwatch. Ouch...


On the other hand, I guess the heat lance can only be used when a unit deepstrikes. Siucide as Shadows Revenge mentions.

The blaster makes more sense but as some of you mentioned the SC can do a good work as well...

The other thing I noticed is that you are mentioning squads of either 5 or 10 scourges. I need to think out of the box here a say why not 7 or 8? Biside the weapon choices that can be bought for every 5 scourges there is no reason not to buy more.... or less. what about 3 scourges? Could they have a role in a list?

I really like the idea of 5 scourges with haywire behind a Talos with twinliked haywire as well.... That could work.

All in all good ideas. Deep down in my black, cold Dark Eldar heart I try to find a reason not to convert the cool models in to Razorwings Flocks.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 28 2012, 21:25

Or convert them into beast master and make bird like Chymera...

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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges   Scourges I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 01 2012, 12:22

I would love to see some pictures of that!!!
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