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 New Archon learning the ropes.

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ArchonDarklight
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PostSubject: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 18 2012, 16:14

Hello everyone!

I'm going to be part of a small tourny in December. We haven't decided on 1k or 750 points yet because we have quite a few people to go through.

Point is, I'm new to Dark Eldar. I've played a couple of games but not enough to respect what does what. I am by no means a noobie to 40k, So I'll be able to identify what my opponents are using since I've played against these guys many times before. It`s just my army that I`ll need to identify with

This is what I have at my disposal:

30x Warriors
20x Wyches
2x Raiders
6x Reavers
5x Hellions
5x Incubi
1x Cronos
1x Talos
1x Razorwing
2x Grotesques (couldn`t get a third, store didn`t have any more in stock Sad )
1x Archon
1x Haemonculus
1x Urien


Not bad for starting out, I know Razz. However I don`t know how to use anything together. I don`t know what compliments what, etc. A good chunk of my Wyches and Warriors aren`t built yet so suggestions for special weapons are welcome. Also recommendations for purchases are totally welcome too.

My opponents at this tourny are going to be: Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Imp Guard. Maybe Chaos and maybe Grey Knights.

What should I base my list around?


Last edited by ArchonDarklight on Thu Nov 22 2012, 16:45; edited 1 time in total
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 18 2012, 21:01

There are a lot of options there that you could take.

Any idea on the kind of list you would like to build?

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crion
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 18 2012, 22:02

Any chance to pick a couple of Venom transports?

Mostly you want to keep everything mobile and/or in transports. Atleast that's what DE archons usually do Smile

Also something to proxy as wracks could be sweet. 3 wracks is a great way to unlock a venom transport with 2 SplinterCannons.

Use warriors as Kabalite Trueborn if you want.

Ravager (Heavy Support) is pretty sweet to have at your disposal

I also like the jetfighter, a great hammer unit and if you have enough lances in your army and not meeting too many flying circuses swapping lances for 2 Disintigrator Cannons is pretty nice.
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2012, 15:27

Thanks for the replies!

@Orthien: I'd like to build something Troop heavy. 'Troop' in both senses of the word. 1) the Troop slots for capping objectives (since 5/6 Mission types are objective now) and 2) Infantry. I love fielding as much infantry as possible. Usually yields me good results with my other armies (BT and Tau).

So really I'd like to build a list with a lot of Warriors/Wyches and whatever will/can compliment them well

@Crion: Venoms I can get. I've been wondering why so many DE lists I've seen have Venoms instead of Raiders... What's the advantage of Venoms?

Mobility sounds like a plan. Razz

Wracks, I was looking at. Since I have Urien, I could use em to load up a transport and to contest objectives, could I not?

What's the advantage of fielding Trueborn? I can see that you can make them close combat rather easily and they'll have a higher base attack and armour save than Wyches... Is that worth it? Or what could I use the Trueborn for that I couldn't just save the points and use em as Warriors?

In smaller point games is a Heavy Support option really needed? I'd figure a couple of Dark Lances in warrior squads would deal with any vehicles that you'd find in small point scenarios.

I love the aesthetics of the Razorwing. I may not use it in the tourny because none of the players entering like flyers and it'd almost feel like a dirty trick to bust it out for this, since none of them would prepare any Anti-air... But if it fits into a list nicely, then... Wink
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2012, 20:25

The advantages to Venoms is spamming lots of them for plenty of SC fire. Its not a list for everyone but it was one of the more competitive lists in 5th for a reason. I personally never liked them but its up to the user.

The idea for taking Wracks at least in Crions post is purely to get more Venoms for Venoms sake. But yet if you have Urien or a Haemmy then they can be troops and do all the fun objective stuff troops do.

Trueborn arn't as good as they used to be in 5th but some still swear by them. They do still do the jobs just fine.
You should not field them as CC ever. They usually come in 3 forms. Blasterborn with lots of Blaster in a Venom action. Darklance-born for sitting in terrain etc and popping things from afar. And Splinterborn with the biggest poisoned weapons your points will allow so you can rock 4 Splintercannons and 3 Shardcarbines including the Venom they ride.
Each has a set roll it does and each is good at it but there are other options to fill those rolls just as effectively if you want to do so.

Our HS is amazing in small points games 3-9 DL's that have Jink and the available movement of a Skimmer with the power of NS's can tip battles depending on who your playing. If they don't have a lot of long range AT fire to counter then you can take out transports and big threats early and just Skim around killing for the rest of the game.


Looking at your opponents you will be wanting to fill up on Warriors, Dissintigrator Cannons and Splintercannons. If you take Wyches they will want PGL's and you will need to pick what to assault carefully.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2012, 20:45

@Orthien wrote:
Trueborn arn't as good as they used to be in 5th but some still swear by them. They do still do the jobs just fine.
~snip~
Each has a set roll it does and each is good at it but there are other options to fill those rolls just as effectively if you want to do so.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but how did Trueborn get worse in 6th? Since they're entirely a shooting unit the various shifts in the rules that benefit shooters help them as they do everyone else and their weapons didn't get any worse. If anything the various nerfs to other things just make them better by comparison.

Likewise which other options fill the roles just as effectively? Splinterborn can't be matched for their price by anything in the book. 4 splinter cannons for 121 points is madness. Likewise you're not going to get more Darklight shots from any other unit especially not for the cost, only Ravager really come close to the points efficiency of a blasterborn squad.

I'm not saying Trueborn are the end all be all or that every army should have them but I find these two comments confusing.
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2012, 22:20

Generally when I build a list for any army, I try to make it either full mech or full foot (flyers don't count). At 750/1k, that is even more important, since you'll be denying half of their guns a target. If you want to go mech, I would highly suggest getting some venoms and ravagers. However, if you want to just build a list off of your current resources, I will give you what I would run in your situation. You don't have to use it, you can use it as inspiration or a starting point. Here is 1000 points:

Archon with Huskblade, Soultrap, Shadowfield, webway portal - 170 points
3 Grotesques - 105 points
10 Warriors with Splinter Cannon, Sybarite - 110 points
10 Warriors with Splinter Cannon, Sybarite - 110 points
10 Warriors with Splinter Cannon, Sybarite - 110 points
6 Reavers with 2 Heat Lances, Arena Champion with Venom Blade - 171 points
Talos with Liquefier Gun, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster - 110 points
Cronos with Probe, Vortex - 110 points

Total: 996 points

If you think you'll be facing any flyers, I would swap out the reavers for a Razorwing. This list has enough anit-tank for 1000 points. You have a core of 30 scoring models, and I would honestly make use of going to ground a bunch with them, if they come under fire from anything scary. The basic plan would be to deploy the archon in a forward position with the Grotes, and the Warriors in cover, and hold everything else in reserve. Then you move up with the Grotes and Archon, and drop the WWP. Then you let loose your nasties, and hopefully win. The grotes are tough enough that they should be able to survive anything short of splinter cannon fire, and hopefully you won't get a mirrormatch.

Hope this helped, and best of luck to you!

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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 21 2012, 00:24

@Murkglow wrote:
I'm not trying to be argumentative here but how did Trueborn get worse in 6th?
Likewise which other options fill the roles just as effectively?

Its not so much that they got worse its that other options got better particularly for AT. With being able to Glance things to death options with Haywire or potentially Dizzies get more appealing while having a bit more variety than 3 or 4 Dark Lights on an elite squad do.
New Rapidfire with Splinterracks and new Objective rules makes Gunboats more appealing than before against Splinterborn etc.

As I said Trueborn still do their job and well but you don't need 2+ units of them in a list to win as I had seen in 5th from some people.


@ Flayed That list has zero mobility of any kind which is a big concern. You have the WWP to bring things forward which is good but no way to get it up the board quickly. At the very least the list needs a Raider for the Archon and his Grots. I would think it better to almost reverse your plan. With Warriors at the back only the SC's will hit anything while they get picked off. Most opponents will focus your Archon and prevent you from deploying your WWP. Should that happen your screwed. Likewise if they have transports and you have no AT on the table to clear them out.
If you at least keep the Talos and Cronos out instead they can help soak fire off your Archon long enough for the WWP to be deployed from some heavy fire up front.

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 21 2012, 11:59

Ravagers dominate low point games. Warrior Raider isn't really needed here, given that you will not be facing Flying Monstrous Creatures. You have 2 Raiders, so I would suggest larger Wych units. Give them a Hekatrix w/PGL and venom blade, wych weapons are not needed. You should also arm them with Haywire. A Haemie would be great to give the wyches a pain token, making them more robust when their Raider gets shot down. I think that Reavers would be fine as a 6 man unit in low points as well. Usually people give them Haywire Blasters, but in a small points list you may want to go with Blasters. I love Incubi, but you really don't need them. I would also be concerned that the Razorwing would be delayed in reserve, denying you much needed alpha strike.
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 22 2012, 16:10

This is rather enlightening. I like the idea of the Webway portal idea but I sort of share the concern Orthien has about not being able to get the portal up to the front very fast. Strategy wise, I've been a fan of trying to usurp the objectives that the enemy is holding over defending my own. (not to say I leave the objectives on my end of the table un-captured.). So popping a bunch of Warrior teams on their end of the table sounds delicious.

I keep looking back at Wracks and Mandrakes in the Codex . Would they be worth picking up for dropping in via Webway portals? I know Mandrakes can't hold objectives but with a Haemie Wracks sound like a fun unit for kicking a defending squad off of their objective

Also, Archon Bruce, you say Ravagers dominate low point games. Is that with the standard Dark Lance load out?
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 22 2012, 20:00

While wracks do well to hold objectives 9 times out of 10 you won't want to hold them as opposed to take them late game/kill everyone that can claim them from you. If you are going to have some Wracks for that purpose then finding some cover to go to ground in on your objective is a must.

Mandrakes are not a very good objective grabbing unit as they really need a Pain Token to start being effective.
If you can find an easy way that works for you to have them leave the WWP and immediately be joined by the Haemy that dropped it then they will become a lot more effective at taking out those objective camping infantry squads.

As for Ravagers it really depends on the list your playing against. If your expecting mostly AV10 and infantry which is a good probability at 1k and below games then a Dissie Ravager will dominate very effectively.

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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 23 2012, 01:03

I was advised that at 1,000 points or less DE work best as a shooty army so I avoid incubi, wych squads larger than 5 (which I always field a Heamon with for the PT) and most of our other expensive assault units.

I'd go with units of warriors in gunboat. The standard load-out being:

5 x Warriors w/Blaster, Venom w/2xScannon - 125pts (option NS upgrade for a total of 135pts)

Take two or more of these and maybe a unit of wracks and Haemon for your HQ and a retinue. Then fill up on Heavy Support. I run 3 stock Ravagers as it comes to 315pts but various combinations of our Heavy support options work well for different people.

Some common ones are:

- 3 Ravagers stock
- 3 Ravagers, 1 with Disintegrators
- 2 Ravagers, 1 Flyer (Usually Razorwing for jack of all trades, AT with its 2 lances, AA with Skyfire rule and AI with it's 4 stock missiles). Usually get a FF for it at a cost of 10pts so you never have to sacrifice a turn of shooting with evade. - Some people swear by the Voidraven but I believe it's less common.

Various combinations including Taloi/Cronos but I'm not experienced with either enough to advice or comment.

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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 20:42

@Murkglow wrote:

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but how did Trueborn get worse in 6th?

Open-topped vehicles blowing up with S4, along with the extra damage rolls on AP2 and AP1 really hurts them when that Venom inevitably blows up. It's a shame too, I painstakingly painted up eight Blasterborn towards the end of 5th and now they just sit in the figure case, unable to find any room in my lists.

Anyway, for 1000 points, I'd run a mostly shooty army. Two boats with Warriors, Venom with Huskblade & Shadowfield Archon and Incubi, and a Ravager or two depending on points, with the possibility to swap a Ravager for five Wyches with haywires in a venom. That should be about 1000 points, give or take a few upgrades, giving you a good all-rounder against anything but flyer spam (which I doubt will take place in such low points).

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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 21:48

just to add my 2 pence worth i love venom with two cannons their sheer amount of fire is amazing for the points 65pts for 12 shots 36" range is madness Twisted Evil you can never have too many in my opinion. Certainly hilarious when you shred monstrous creature list with them.

My 750 list is as follows:

HQ : haemi (no upgrades contraversial but at this point level i just use him to fill a HQ slot)

Troop : 3 x 3 wracks in venoms with 2 x SC + NS

Heavy : 2 x Ravagers with NS. Razorwing with SC

If you take NS off everything that gives you and extra 50 points to spend on other things this list has served me very well in the small points games.

All my other lists are a scaled up version of this list adding warrior, trueborn with blasters, and wyches with haywires as the points cost match that of an equal unit of wracks.

all depends how you want to play, playing with alot of reavers and hellions is alot of fun, and beast masters are ridiculous in close combat.
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 22:43

Actually ap2 and 1 weapons don't do any more damage in this edition. The damage chart was just changed so that all weapons with ap3 or worse are the same as ap- before. Ap2 and 1 are the same. Well, almost, as the wrecked result in the chart was replaced with explodes.
The issue I've had with Trueborn in this edition is that I no longer have the points to include so many Venoms, what's with wanting to also take things like flyers, Reavers and an allied Farseer. With 3 units of Trueborn, atleas some of them would accomplish something, but the single unit I've used now tended to get blown up after a single round of shooting. I decided to just replace them with another Warrior unit and use the extra points on more Reavers or Beastmasters.

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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 26 2012, 16:59

Neat info. Considering my usual opponents, Both the Venom w/ Shedders and the Warriors on Raiders sound fantastic. Are Splinter Racks a must on Raiders in such a case?

When I get home tonight, I'm going to piece together a list from what I've heard here and see if you guys like it.
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 26 2012, 20:54

If your taking a full 10man Warrior unit then the Splinterracks are amazing at boosting the effectiveness of your 8+ Splinterrifles.

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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 26 2012, 20:59

I'm currently Running a 9 man squad with 2 Splinter Cannons, shredder and Duke Sliscus in a raider with Splinter Racks tonight vs Tyranids...

Will let folks know how it works out.
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 26 2012, 21:38

Are you talking about Warriors or Trueborn? Because warriors can't have those weapons at that squad size...
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 26 2012, 22:15

Well, what do you know, you are right!

Been using Battlescribe for all my list making and it didn't catch the error.

Broke it out into a Trueborn squad in a venom.

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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 27 2012, 05:49

Hey guys,

I've got a few ideas for lists going but here's my first one. Brutal honesty is expected Razz

Archon - Huskblade, Shadowfield, Soultrap, PGL
Incubi (4) - Klaivex, Demiklaives
Venom - Splinter Cannon, Nightshields

Warriors (10) - Splinter Cannon
Raider - Nightshields, Splinterracks

Warriors (10) - Splinter Cannon
Raider - Nightshields, Splinterracks

Trueborn (3) - Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon, Shardcarbine
Venom - Splinter Cannon, Nightshields

Talos - TL Haywire, Addictional CC, Chainflails

total: 984.
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 27 2012, 06:23

Brutal honesty eh? Razz

Well, in my opinion, your archon/retinue is far too expensive for this point value and the Talos is also over upgraded and with questionable choices. The Klaivex/Demiklaives are really expensive and at 1k points probably overkill/unnecessary. Likewise I really don't think the Chainflails (or even worse the additional CCW) is necessary on the Talos. It's already probably going to win combats if it reaches them, Twin-Linked Liquifiers would probably be better. I'm not a fan of Haywire on the Talos but then it's your only Anti-Tank... Speaking of which by 1k points I think a bit more anti-tank is in order then just one kinda short range shot per turn from the talos and a couple DL shots from Raiders. If you run into an IG mech company (or heck just some marines in rhinos) you're probably boned. Also I'm a bit sad to see you have only 2 troop squads at 1k.

Long story short more troops is better then more toys and you've got an awful lot of toys you probably don't need and not many units on the table. That's of course my preference and not necessarily correct but...
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 27 2012, 13:53

@Murkglow wrote:
Brutal honesty eh? Razz

Well, in my opinion, your archon/retinue is far too expensive for this point value and the Talos is also over upgraded and with questionable choices. The Klaivex/Demiklaives are really expensive and at 1k points probably overkill/unnecessary.

Good to know! My main Army is Black Templars, so the concept of 'Sergeants' is a little new to me Razz.

@Murkglow wrote:
Likewise I really don't think the Chainflails (or even worse the additional CCW) is necessary on the Talos. It's already probably going to win combats if it reaches them, Twin-Linked Liquifiers would probably be better. I'm not a fan of Haywire on the Talos but then it's your only Anti-Tank...

Also Good to know. The Talos was the last thing I squeezed into the list, to be honest. I could opt it out for more Warriors, if that sounds better.

@Murkglow wrote:
Speaking of which by 1k points I think a bit more anti-tank is in order then just one kinda short range shot per turn from the talos and a couple DL shots from Raiders. If you run into an IG mech company (or heck just some marines in rhinos) you're probably boned. Also I'm a bit sad to see you have only 2 troop squads at 1k.

I can tell you that I know all of my opponents. My IG friend only has, like, a Chimaera, a Russ and a Basilisk... He's got more Guardsman than anything else. He may not even use em. (Which would suck, the alternative is Grey Knights...). He's also the resident Vanilla SM player but has retired them, so Rhinos probably won't be involved. Only vehicles I can think of that have a good chance of showing up are the Eldar's War walker and his Wave Serpent. Ork player likes Trukks... but the last game I played against him I shot down 1 of his 7 Trukks. The other 6 were practically roadblocks after he disembarked. Won that game 8 - 0 Needless to say, I'm not worried Wink

@Murkglow wrote:
Long story short more troops is better then more toys and you've got an awful lot of toys you probably don't need and not many units on the table. That's of course my preference and not necessarily correct but...

I'm just not used to this whole "options" thing yet... Only ever play Black Templars and Tau before now Razz
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 27 2012, 14:16

Of course if you know all of your opponents then you only need as much Anti-Tank as you need. If none of your opponents run vehicles then more splinter shots all around. Smile

I'm not necessarily against having the Talos on principle or anything, it gives them something to shoot at other then your transports, it's just alot of points put into upgrades. Without changing your list too much (ie no altering what units you've got or squad sizes) if you drop the flails+ccw (while buying Twin-Linked Liquifiers, which should be great vs blob infantry like the ork and ig you mention), the Klaivex/Demiklaives upgrades, and the Night Shields you'll have 110 points open (if my math is correct). That'll buy you a squad of warriors in a venom with the cannon upgrade for a third scoring unit and another load of splinter fire (2 more canons + 5 rifles).
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PostSubject: Re: New Archon learning the ropes.   New Archon learning the ropes. I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 27 2012, 14:29

Hmm. Do small squads of Warriors in Venoms have any survivability? I mean, in my head I'd want to avoid small teams of Warriors just because that's an easy kill for my opponent....
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THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
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