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3 units of 6 or 2 units of 9?
3 units...target saturation!
Quick Reaver question Voteba1343%Quick Reaver question Voteba15
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2 units...big units don't run!
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Total Votes : 21
 

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Tony Spectacular
Kabalite Warrior
Tony Spectacular

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PostSubject: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 00:58

So I am going to be running 18 Reavers at an upcoming tournament. 2000 points, one FOC. My question is this: should I run them as 2 units of 9 or as 3 units of 6? Either way there will be 6 HLs total, and in neither case will there be Champions. Should I aim for the target saturation or for the decreased risk of being run off of the table? I'm tending towards running 3 units of 6 right now, as I would love to be able to spread out my force, provide multiple threats, and be able to put 4 HLs on one target while still bringing the pain elsewhere. What do you think?
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 01:21

SPAM! SPAM! SPAM! SPAM! Razz
I think that three units of 6 will serve you well.

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 02:37

I have found that units of 6 are great for harrassment and can last a few turns, but they can also die or run away very, very quickly. Bigger units can last significantly longer and I always take at least 7 per unit now, and 8 or 9 if I can afford the points. For a tournament, I would tend towards 2x9 myself.

And I always take a champion with a VB, never used to but I love them now, well worth the minimal points.

I also like taking just two units of Reavers because that allows me to get another FA choice in there for variety, if I want to. Big mob of Scourges with 4 HB's, or in the future a nice beast pack.
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Tony Spectacular
Kabalite Warrior
Tony Spectacular

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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 02:53

Those are valid points, but I am not taking champions so that I cannot get tied up in a challenge, and I am not bringing any other FA choices in this particular list. So, with those factors out, the only downsides to bringing 3 that I can see are a) giving up another potential VP and b) increased chance of being forced to flee. I'm still leaning towards the 3 units. Any other input anyone?

What do you find to be the advantage of 7 over 6?
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 05:54

2 Units. In 5th edition i would say 3 units, but that has nothing to deal with target saturation.

Simply because bladevaning is done in the shooting phase you cant pass an opportunity to have paint token on a unit with good toughness and goov save. That makes them marginally better. 2 units have better chances of claiming more tokens for themselves, they can play like clean-up squads able to get enemy anywhere. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. =)

You can now soften target with shooting before finishing it off in the turn you will finish them off. IF you are playing against enemy MSU thats even more so.

Here is another rocksolid argument, Reavers are the only ones who now can contest on a last turn from 48" away from objective, and you probably need a big survavable squad with a FnP to survive that contesting.

In some missions they will be scoring and will give away bonus KP, so you dont wanna give enemy any freebies.
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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 07:09

I am a bad judge, but I would say 3x6. Since I use them also for infantry support, meaning it is their task to soak overwatch casualties in a joint assault. But that's just because the aim remains on raider-wyches. If the unit would have a singular role, for instance heavy bladevaning or heatlance attacks, I too would say 2x9.


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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 10:27

Depends what you want to do with them but Azdrubael's comments are spot on larger units are more pain token efficient. They also need to take more wounds to suffer a leadership test. When you fall back 3d6 I think the champion is really a must (one failed leadership test near your own board edge and you are gone!), so you would also save you points there (buying 2 champion, not 3). As mentioned before for contesting the larger units are more durable, especially if you can get a pain token on them. Finally it makes them usable in assault.

That being said units of six do have a place, and that's if you run blasters and a lot of raiders. This lets them jump in and out behind raider (out of LoS) using their jump shoot jump move (the same can be said for LoS blocking terrain). This is a lot closer to how reavers were played in 5th (or at least how I used them).

Hope that helps! Smile

PS: It might be worth reading the reaver tactica I did a few months ago for skaredCast

Part 1
Part 2

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 12:13

depends on what you want from them. The 3 units of 6 are better for harrasment and additional AT. 2 Units of 9 are when you want some assault element in that unit, and be able to have that option for close combat.

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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 12:37

And don't forget the points value... It really depends on the rest of your army I figure. Personally I run 2x5 with arena champion and venom blade at 250 points total, but ooooohhh how I would have wanted to field more! But I just can't get another 44 points for even two wrung out of the rest of my list...

Synergy, I gather.

Mushkilla & Skari, thanks for your great tactica!

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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 17 2012, 14:22

Thanks, everyone! I have a lot to consider. Mush: of course I've read your tactica! Smile It's been very valuable to me in making my plans. Thanks so much for all the work you do on the tactica and the battle reports.

I really want to avoid CC with them. The only circumstance where I would get in would be as cleanup, if a combat has me down to just a couple of Wyches or Incubi, they might jump in on the 2nd or 3rd turn to make sure that I win the battle, but aside from that I don't intend to get them stuck in at all. And I had already considered the points cost difference when buying Champions, but since I don't have 30 (much less 45) points to spend in this list, the Champions are right out, for now at least.

Regarding having models on the table late in game, I'm not sure that I agree that 2 units is better in this case. With 2 units of 9 the enemy will only have 2 units to kill. I don't see how forcing them to kill 12 models makes it easier for them than having to kill 9. And if they are able to kill 18 then they've killed everyone anyway, regardless of unit composition. I feel like forcing them to soak the Reavers in fire from multiple units if they want to kill them increases survivability with 3 units, rather than decreasing it. This is assuming they don't break, of course.

As far as AT goes, like I said I feel also that being able to put 4 HL shots on one target while still having another unit able to pick another target (or the troops if I pop a transport) is extremely valuable. Being able to pick 3 units to fire on makes them much more effective than only being able to pick 2, right? If I'm lucky enough to pop a transport with one unit, and shoot the troops inside with a second unit but don't manage to kill them all, being able to bladevane them with the 3rd (which I really should be able to do from anywhere on the board) while still making the assault move with the first 2 seems like a plan. 6 Reavers shooting, then 6 bladevaning is killier than 9 either shooting or bladevaning, isn't it?

If I ran 3 Haems and transferred their initial tokens would it change your mind? If 3 start with tokens, are they then more effective than 2?

Hmm...lots to think about here. I've run 2 groups of 9 in the past. I'll have to try the 3 groups of 6 out before the tournament and see how it goes. I'll definitely report back once I do.

Thanks again!

Another thought...how about 3 squads of 6 each, 2 with HLs and 1 with Blaster. I would probably then put a Champ with VB on the HL squads, as they are more likely to see CC.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 19 2012, 09:44

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
Mush: of course I've read your tactica! Smile It's been very valuable to me in making my plans. Thanks so much for all the work you do on the tactica and the battle reports.
Sorry, I wasn't sure it was posted a while ago and I haven't got round to writing it up for The Dark City (I really should).

@Tony Spectacular wrote:

Regarding having models on the table late in game, I'm not sure that I agree that 2 units is better in this case. With 2 units of 9 the enemy will only have 2 units to kill. I don't see how forcing them to kill 12 models makes it easier for them than having to kill 9. And if they are able to kill 18 then they've killed everyone anyway, regardless of unit composition. I feel like forcing them to soak the Reavers in fire from multiple units if they want to kill them increases survivability with 3 units, rather than decreasing it. This is assuming they don't break, of course.
I'm not sure I understand the first part of this comment, its not 12 vs 9, it's 18 vs 18 in two different configurations. The survivability comes in not having to test on LD8-9 as often and more models benefiting from a single pain token, with 9 reavers the units bladevaning and shooting is more effective which ensures they can kill 3-4 models to get a pain token on a weakened unit, and when they do 9 models will benefit instead of 6.

@Tony Spectacular wrote:

As far as AT goes, like I said I feel also that being able to put 4 HL shots on one target while still having another unit able to pick another target (or the troops if I pop a transport) is extremely valuable. Being able to pick 3 units to fire on makes them much more effective than only being able to pick 2, right?
Heat lances have short enough range as is, if you want your heatlances to be in range of multiple targets encase one is destroyed you are going to have to be even closer to your opponent.
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@Tony Spectacular wrote:

If I'm lucky enough to pop a transport with one unit, and shoot the troops inside with a second unit but don't manage to kill them all, being able to bladevane them with the 3rd (which I really should be able to do from anywhere on the board) while still making the assault move with the first 2 seems like a plan. 6 Reavers shooting, then 6 bladevaning is killier than 9 either shooting or bladevaning, isn't it?
But you could just assault the survivors with the reavers that destroyed the transport.

@Tony Spectacular wrote:

If I ran 3 Haems and transferred their initial tokens would it change your mind? If 3 start with tokens, are they then more effective than 2?
Running two squads of nine, would mean you only need to get two haemies, arguably only one haemi as the other squad could easily get a token early on from bladevaning.

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
Another thought...how about 3 squads of 6 each, 2 with HLs and 1 with Blaster. I would probably then put a Champ with VB on the HL squads, as they are more likely to see CC.
If you want to run three units of six, and not use them in assault blasters would be far more suitable, smaller squads synergies more with them when it comes to jump shoot jump (eldar jetbike move). On the other hand two blasters on their own isn't going to do much and will need lance support or help from another reaver squad.

Hope that helps. Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Quick Reaver question   Quick Reaver question I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 19 2012, 10:52

2 units of 9 for me, for the simple reason that I run a large Beast pack, which I find to be very effective, and I don't want to drop it to field the extra unit of Reavers.

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