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 Gunboat raiders worth it?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 10:22

Are gun boat raiders really worth it, when you can take venoms?

10 warriors
Raider, lance, splinter racks - 160

VS.

5 warriors blaster
Venom, 2 cannons - 125

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 10:52

No, pt for pt and at 12" 5 Warriors in Venom is more points efficient then Warriors in Raider.

Plus Venoms outrange Gunboats

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 11:02

AS 1++ said.
And we need more blasters in our comeptitive lists unfortunatly. Anyway I like gunboats tho, they are fun because alot of shooting in one unit.

But I have to admit I run 5x Warriors w/blaster in Raider just as often as Venoms.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 11:18

Mathematically, as these things tend to boil down too, its actually quite interesting.

Considering the loadouts, we know the Raider lance has an advantage of range and ability to fire on the move, so lets focus on the anti infantry capabilities of the splinter fire.

Assuming full BS and firing at one target (and including splinter rack re-rolls)

At 24" range Venom and 4 warriors score 10.5 hits, the Raider boat scores 8.8, meaning on average agin 5.2 wounds vs 4.4. Pretty close.

At 12" range Venomspam scores 13.2 hits ( 6.6 wounds) while gunboats score 17.6 hits (8.8 wounds)

Here is where I thought it would be alot different; Snapfire (in that we move the vehicles 12")

24" venom 8.5 hits, 4.25 wounds. Raider 2.9 hits, 1.45 wounds

12" range Venom scores 9.2 hits for 4.6 wounds whilst the raider jumps to 5.8 hits, 2.9 wounds.

Venoms are basically awesome, and thats what really skews the numbers in that direction. Whats interesting is if you give one of the gunboat warriors a Darklance or blaster, you double your anti tank range, and only reduce your AI effectiveness by a minor amount

@24", Full BS, 8 hits, 4 wounds. @12" full BS 16hits/8wounds. Snapfire is 2.6H/1.3W and 5.3H/2.65W.

As always, it comes down to intent and purpose. The venom alone scores 4 wounds per turn on average, so venoms do = win, but raiders are more "survivable" with that extra hull point, and do have the ability to tank kill from farther.

Recently I fielded the 3 truebornw/2SC in a venom, at less points than the venomspam staple it was interesting to be sure. Moving the venom 12 and firing 4 splinter cannons (2 @ vehicle BS) averages 10H/5W per round.

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 12:36

Dark elder warriors, since the last codex they have just been a huge disappointment for me. There is nothing they can do that other units can´t do better. I don´t like the blaster squad, the blaster cost way too much for what it does, especially when the eluent of most other armies the melta gun cost less for more damage output. The only thing they do well is massed splinter fire, with both venom and trueborn does better. And the 4+ to wound is only impressive when the opponents bring their high T models.
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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 13:37

One thing to consider is that once the vehicle is downed, you still have some decent dakka output from the raider squad (with more models, its more survivable too). Additionally, I use the Raider squad with Splinter Racks to bring down flying monstrous creatures. Caveat: I only take 1 Raider Warrior squad. I rely on Venoms for the majority of my poison shots.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 15:34

Lately for me putting 10 guys in a raider, means 8 of them will die in the explosion....

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 16:03

180- 10 warriors w/ 1 blaster, 1 splinter cannon; Raider w/ splinter racks

125- 5 warriors w/ blaster; venom w/ extra cannon

All damage is against MEQ at 16 pts a model

@24"

Gunboat- 2.183 wounds (.555 from raider, 1.184 from warriors, .444 from cannon)

Venom- 1.776 wounds (1.332 from venom, .444 from warriors)

@18"

Gunboat- 2.738 wounds (.555 from raider, 1.184 from warriors, .444 from cannon, .555 from blaster)

Venom- 2.331 wounds (1.332 from venom, .444 from warriors, .555 from blaster)

@12"

Gunboat- 3.478 wounds (.555 from raider, 2.368 from warriors, .555 from blaster)

Venom- 2.775 (1.332 from venom, .888 from warriors, .555 from blaster)


So as you see, the gunboat outpreforms the venom everytime, but we also have to consider points efficency, lets add that into account.

@24"

Gunboat- 19.404% point efficency

Vemon- 22.732% point efficency

@18"

Gunboat- 24.337% point efficency

Venom- 29.836% point efficency

@12"

Gunboat- 30.915% point efficency

Venom- 35.52% point efficnency


So there we have it, even though the gunboat does more damage, the venom is more point efficent. That being said you also have A: a 3rd hull point, B: longer range AT, C: a unit that can function and be deadly after the vehicle dies. The venom on the other hand has A: longer AI (which the meta is changing towards), B: smaller model so easier to hide

basically... it all really comes down to preference...

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 20:10

Yes but to make it a true comparisons you need both units to be of the same (close to) in points. For the cost of fielding 2x Gunboats you are getting 3x Venoms with change...

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 20:23

@1++ wrote:
Yes but to make it a true comparisons you need both units to be of the same (close to) in points. For the cost of fielding 2x Gunboats you are getting 3x Venoms with change...

Not to mention 2 more KP for your opponent.
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 06:28

@Archon Bruce wrote:
@1++ wrote:
Yes but to make it a true comparisons you need both units to be of the same (close to) in points. For the cost of fielding 2x Gunboats you are getting 3x Venoms with change...

Not to mention 2 more KP for your opponent.

Well at least, then you have the same amount of hull points ;-)

I prefer the raider, 'cause of it's better survivabillity.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 06:32

I still dont think I have a skimmer that have survived to loose more than 1 hullpoint before dieing... If I am lucky I dont loose it at first hit, but the next one will kill me, thats a given, atleast for me. Survivabillity is something I havent seen together weith DE... ever :p

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 12:53

@Darklight wrote:
I still dont think I have a skimmer that have survived to loose more than 1 hullpoint before dieing... If I am lucky I dont loose it at first hit, but the next one will kill me, thats a given, atleast for me. Survivabillity is something I havent seen together weith DE... ever :p

I agree that it isn't often that Raiders survive to the 3rd HP, but it does happen. It does help against bolter glancing fire, as well as Tac squad assault. You should be making your Raider/Venom decision based on how many bodies you want in the transported unit, as well as whether you need more AT or AI depending on the composition of the rest of your list.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 18:41

Maybe put your raider in front of your troops and walk behind it? safer that way Very Happy
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 19:22

@1++ wrote:
Yes but to make it a true comparisons you need both units to be of the same (close to) in points. For the cost of fielding 2x Gunboats you are getting 3x Venoms with change...

not really, that is where point efficency comes in.

We have the constant (the point value of the marines) and we know the damage output by each of the squads. so you multiply the damage output by the point value of the marines, and then divide by the post cost of the unit. That shows you how much of their points value they make up by killing that target.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2012, 06:59

@Seshiru wrote:
Lately for me putting 10 guys in a raider, means 8 of them will die in the explosion....

I see lots of number crunching, but where's the actual game context? You can't just compare something to 3 Venoms - sure, that's helpful, but you can't just buy 3 Venoms, you need to take units to unlock them etc.

Gunboats have a few big problems:

1. What Seshiru said.
2. Boats don't score anymore. Guys/Chicks inside do. Guys/Chicks inside need to live until Turn 5.
3. Shaken/Stunned also affects passengers.
4. Our vehicles are easier to destroy. They get pen'd more often than glanced, and between open-topped, AP2 now being +1 and AP1 being +2, Raiders now explode on a 3+/4+ if the attacking weapon was AP 2/1.
5. We need all the firepower we can get. Our vehicles are the best mobile firepower we have, why tie them up guarding units inside when we could be more aggressive?

Unless they're unit size 10+, keeping Troops off the table seems best.
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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2012, 14:33

Can we just get two people to run a 'Practice' Game, or two, like Mush has done for atleast one of the more recent fights he's had. Even against yourself you can get a good deal of knowledge from it. (side note the 2d practice matches in virtual battlefields will be, 2d, so some of the "Small target" gets lost in translation)?
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat raiders worth it?   Gunboat raiders worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 20 2012, 14:43

good points, but my question is about #4. Last edition our raiders and venoms were the same to be destroyed. Last edition meltas wrecked us on a 3+, and this edition is the same (abeit now an explosion instead of a soft wreck) so I wouldnt say they are easier to kill, just different.

I also agree with it seems best to keep troops off the table, but they make up such a huge percentage of our army and bring such a high volume of fire, I doubt we could fesiably do that consistantly. We need our troops to do their damage, and by hiding All of them its just madness. Now I do agree keeping 1 or two in reserve might be a huge boon, but then without transports or a fast, survivable denial unit, how else are we going to stop the opponent from scoring their objective?

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