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forest90
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PostSubject: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 18:12


Been re-reading the DE codex and the 40k 6ED and the more games ive seen lean in favor of the one with more/ better flyers.
now i know out right most veteran players will say the bomber and jetfighter are not the best idea to take, and such a points drop would be better in 1-2 venom more fodders. but my collection of notes is better suggesting 3 bombers and what ever you can squeeze into venom/ raiders. traditionaly we would use ravagers for this role but with the option of a S9 lance bomb and able to seperately target an additional enemy unit with 3-4 S6+ lances/ missles sound more what DE need to evolve in 6ed. maby somones already made this a post or has already discussed this and i missed out but im going to revisit and i want to hear if any one has tried and had succsess with the flyers in recent games.


(IN SHORT)
In 5ed we used our raiader and ravagers to out run and out shoot our enemys, with season of the flyers finaly upon us why dont we upgrade to our much more equiped and faster heavys.
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shhbevewyquiet
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 18:20

I wouldnt say running 3 would be absolutely necessary due to that is an incredible point sink. But definitely adding 1 is a must. IMHO. I have been running 1 Talos, ! ravager, & 1 Bomber. That way I can multi-task. Seems to be working against a myriad of armies. Havent faced SoB yet so not sure how this will hold up against that infernal exorcist. but thus far the versatility is definitely holding its own against everything else.

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 18:40

my veiw was all 3 would come on the table approximatly the same time and in a classical V formation(side by side) they could drop bombs upon entery 3 seperate targets and lance the hell out of 3 more targets, ultimatly eliminating opposing mechs. 6 mech turn 2 and havent even used a single kabalite warrior/wyche/ect. more or less carpet bomb the place and pick off the fleshy SM exposed from his rhino. it just clicked the other day that that is exactly how DE used to work. ill agree 3 isnt a must, but a maximized oppertunity.use 3 units to destroy 6+ rather then 3 units to kil 3 units.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 19:23

@forest90 wrote:
my veiw was all 3 would come on the table approximatly the same time

The problem with that is chances are they won't come in at the same time. Might be worth investing in a coms relay if you go that root. The problem with flyers and in particular running three is the rest of your army is left fighting all of your opponents army, which will be tough.

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 19:36

with the static revserve roll its till a fair chance turns 2/3 all should be on the table or re entereing reserves. and worse case scenerio your bombs and missle flunk its shot down, an expnsive peice but, they should crash and burn, coliding into somthin valuable to your opponents.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 19:54

@forest90 wrote:
with the static revserve roll its till a fair chance turns 2/3 all should be on the table or re entereing reserves. and worse case scenerio your bombs and missle flunk its shot down, an expnsive peice but, they should crash and burn, coliding into somthin valuable to your opponents.

You are still depending on a few crucial dice rolls. A recent game had my opponents flyers fail to show until turn one on turn two and that was witha 4+ re-rollable to reserves (so 75% chance to come on). Statistics don't mean much when it comes to single dice rolls. It will happen are you prepared to deal with it? Do you have a contingency plan?

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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 20:23

Its a 1 in 3 chance per flyer to not have it show up each turn assuming you have no negative modifiers thanks to Warlord traits etc. When that applys to all your HS options there is a very real risk of having the dice gods laugh at you and just have your reserves flounder for a turn or 3.
As Mush as said if you go that route then you really want to be bring Comms Relays and having backup plans because while it wont always happen you will have games where you don't have them to count on.

I have played a Necron player who failed to bring on all 6 fliers for two turns. It crippled him and he had no way to recover.

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 21:20

i understand the risks with reserving them. but its not like the entire army relies on just 2-3 Models. and expecting them to die very quick means to maximize their out put
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 22:44

Those 3 models take up your entire HS section. That means no Ravagers which is a large portion of DE's anti-tank. Likewise DE flyers are not cheap. 3 of them is a significant portion of your point total. Without those points (as much as 1/4 of your army or more depending on the point value of the game) the enemy has alot more on the board then you do and can focus all of that on destroying what you do have on the board. I would say the army very much relies on those 3 models.

I'm not saying it can't work but it certainly seems to me to be an "all your eggs in one basket" kind of deal.
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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 23:03

I have played both fliers, and unless you are facing Necron flying circus the jetfighter is a better bet. Some say that the implosion missile is great to counter termies. The problem is that with such large bases and the chance to scatter, more often than not you will be disappointed. Not to mention the fact that Termies are not always deepstriking, and you are not always coming in from reserve immediately after they land. The jetfighter comes with free missiles, which can be upgraded to shatterfield for cheap. So overall, unless you plan on facing a lot of fliers, just go with one jetfighter with lances, FF, and mono or shatterfield (which are good against vehicles as well as all the new high toughness troops that seem to be creeping into the meta).
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 23:41

im origaly a tyranid player i know all about dumping alot of points into a couple of units and relying heavily on it. but somtimes its worth it.

all i wantd was to knw if itd work and has anyone tryd similar
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 02:44

Simple facts are yes 3 planes are good they do the same as bringing one but 3 times as much.

Question is why are the required?
Need AT? DL Ravager could work.
Need AI? Dissie Ravager or Talos would do too.
AA? Is an ADL an option? Could 1 or 2 planes handle them? If not then is there so many Flyers that ignoring them all together would be a better option?

There are other options that are more reliable and cheaper that can work with your team towards the Alpha strike and getting the upper hand early.
Also keep in mind that thanks to flyer movement they might not always be able to strike what you want to strike.

There is no reason you can't take them and most people here will recommend at least 1 flyer in your list but 3 have a lot of downsides that other options don't have or balance out a bit.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 06:36

In comeptitive use Ravager is the best option we got as heavy support.

Now that said, I do understand people bringing Razorwing somewhat, and I have started to do so myself but for us bringing flyers might bring more problems than solutions really.

Yes without flyers we need 6's to hit. Thats the downside of not bringin one.
But there are huge problems with not bringing any; we have less targets in turn 1 and most likely in turn 2 aswell for the oponents to hit. And for a fragile army that need to hit hard and fast, thats devistating.
We are also a army that relay on a alpha strike against alot of armys if not all. And reducing our heavy support fire in the first turns really sets us back aswell.

Our manouverbility with large amount of firepower can handle the few flyers other put on the table. When they arrive we are allreay most likely in their deploymentzone and then its going to be hard for them to get the best out of them. And since they will start with less on the table its easy for us to focus fire on few units on the board. I'm not saying we will table them in 1 turn, even tho its very possible to do so. But we can cripple them so we can focus fire on flyers when they arrive.

Another problem for us with flyers is that we usually want the first turn, and with just having the 1 or 2 flyers. Or even if you bring 3 for that matter. Now you are for exmaple facing a team with 3 or more flyers aswell. If that is IG or some Marines team, that might even got AA on the ground. Then you are in deep crap, as he will come in second with his flyers and just shoot yours down easy, so the survivability you got with our flyers was a false safety.

My experience for an all commers compeititve list are that flyers for our style of playing, and other units isnt as good as using Ravager. Tailoring lists, or playing for fun, or stuff like that. Then sure I like fielding a Flyer or two

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 08:03

@forest90 wrote:
im origaly a tyranid player i know all about dumping alot of points into a couple of units and relying heavily on it. but somtimes its worth it.
Then isn't it worth investing in a Aegis Defence line and Comms? The line helps keep your outnumbered ground forced alive and the relay ensures your bombers come in on time. Also what do your bombers do if you are fighting one of the infantry heavy lists that are becoming so popular in 6th, the void mine is frankly a joke. I think hitting two targets with one void raven is going to be harder than you think, especially on the first turn, if your opponent vehicles are in a line parallel to his table edge (irrespective where on the board) its impossible as the void raven guns only have a 45degree arc of fire, and you are limited to a single 90degree turn at the start of it's movement phase.

@forest90 wrote:

all i wantd was to knw if itd work and has anyone tryd simila
r
I believe Sky Serpant used to run three razorwings but ended up swapping one out for a ravager.

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Last edited by Mushkilla on Wed Nov 14 2012, 16:53; edited 2 times in total
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 14:46

that the feedback i was looking for. thanck you. i try gambles like this cause my local goes anti meta and nothing works with everyone being trolls
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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 14:48

If you want to see trolls, you will have to go see "The Hobbit" coming out in a few weeks. Yahh!
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 19:39

I like Reavers, and about flyers... they are way less effective then Vendettas or our cousins' Nightwings in terms of anti-air, better at air-to-ground attacks. But this could be done with ground vehicles.

But if you're against flyer circus or IG w/ 3 Vendettas, might consider 2 or 3 deep striking razors/ravens and go for their tail. Rear armor is only 10, and they cannot retaliate.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: faster then boats (feed back)   faster then boats (feed back) I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 21:49

my main interest in teh bomber was in 5th ed i almost one a tounry because of the implosion missles and the void weapons.
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