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 Clawed fiends unit

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Eldur
Sybarite
Eldur

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PostSubject: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 14:14

So I was just guessing... with new wounds allocation in 6th you can use a 5 clawed fiend unit like you couldn't before...

If you take 5x beastmasters+5x clawed fiends, you can use model positioning (and LoS! for beastmasters since they're characters) to distribute wounds through the fiends as desired, to potentially obtain the maximum number of attacks on the charge for them (40 S5 attacks!). Also, if you do it right the T value for the unit will be 5 all of the time.

What do you think of this unit? It's 260 points at its maximum (you can take lesser versions ofc) In my opinion, the opponent wouldn't like them much Twisted Evil


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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 14:32

It's good in theory but in practise, with LoS! wounds being allocated to the closest model you have to spend a lot of time positioning your models each turn to get the maximum benefit.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 14:36

well, unwounded fiends at the front, when wounded they go to the rear in the next movement...

to use LOS!, simply put a master in base-to-base combat with 2 fiends (behind him) in order to choose which one gets the wound.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 14:36

@Eldur wrote:
well, unwounded fiends at the front, when wounded they go to the rear in the next movement...

to use LOS!, simply put a master in base-to-base combat with 2 fiends (behind him) in order to choose which one gets the wound.

Yeah I thought of that too until I ran up against someone with lots of blast weapons Sad

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Clawed fiends unit YhBv3Wk
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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 14:51

What do they do except take wounds?

Sure they have a nice enough profile, but because you have to pay for a beast master per guy, you are paying 52 pts per guy, and using up a Fast Attack slot that is usually quite a bit more valuable to us.

You are hoping for exactly the right amount of wounds, and no more, to try and maximize attacks. I say it will happen once in about 20 games if you are lucky. Most of the time, I suspect you'll just get hit with mass fire once your opponent realizes there are no saves there, just wounds.

In theory it sounds good, but once it hits the table, expect the deflatting balloon sound.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 15:49

Why not just use grots and get the pain token benefits

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 17:58

Grots vs Clawed Fiends...

Grots cost 35 each, but remember that you need an IC unless you want them to explode.
Fiends cost 40 each, 52 if you count the beastmaster, as xzandrate pointed.

Grots move 6" and are affected by terrain, fiends move 12", have Fleet (beast rules) and ignore terrain even when charging. You can mount the Grots in a Raider, but it adds to the cost.

Grots get a Pain Token (=feel no pain) for free, Fiends don't use the Feed from Pain rule.

Both have a 6+ save and in 6th it's easier to give them a cover save (but Fiends can move from cover to cover so it's even better for them).

Grots: T5, FnP, 3A, 3W
Fiends: T5, 4A (more when wounded), 4W (5 if you count the master Wink )

Edited: oh, remember that Fiends have I5, while grots cannot have it now that furious charge has changed.

I would say that both are though as nails, but the difference is that Fiends get more dangerous when they are wounded (but not killed). This is a powerful psychological tool because your opponent must shot them down and do it well if he don't want them to hurt his army. Frenzy!!!!!!

Also, compared to normal grotesque builds is quite cheap, and its mobility makes this unit able to join mech armies, absorbing lots of shots from the enemy (which is priceless).

Yes, it requires skill to move this beasts in order to absorb the damage in a proper way, but it has this possibility.
In the case an army rich in blast shots, it's not that hard: deploy them in a wide line, alternating fiends and masters and run forward, run I said!!!!


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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 18:33

I don't think the Beasts are really all that much cheaper then the Grotesques. A squad of four plus a raider is 200 points, a squad of four beasts with masters is 208. Yes the Grotesques must be with a hero but they're pretty much a retinue unit anyway IMO so that's not a big deal unless your list is designed around a hero who wouldn't want them as his retinue (in which case just don't take them).
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 22:13

Also the Grots get FC when joined by a haemy which also allows for 2 liquifiers and the grots can have a champion with 1 weapon upgrade.

The furious charge piece is important for me because I commonly use them to rush into enemy parking lots and destory tanks.

Then on the beast side, it's important that you keep your fiend numbers >= Beast master numbers else your 5 toughness will disapear for all practicle purposes.

But the mobility without the need of a raider is a huge bonus, may have to give thease guys another thought. (would prolly use the same models, since my grots are modified Crypt Ghouls and Minotaurs).

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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 02:15

I think you are better off going with Razorwing Flocks. Given that they have 6 rending attacks each on the charge, and 5 wounds each, they are an absolute beast in CC, especially if you run the baron with them. They are 15 points versus the 40 points for a clawed fiend, and while the clawed fiend has S/T of 5 the rending attacks and extra base attack/extra wound of the razorwings just pushes them over the top for me.

You can get a unit of 4 beast masters and 8 razorwing for only 168 points!! For those of you who will point out the instant kill issue, yes, they can get taken out like that but in general your opponent is going to have a lot of other pressing targets to use S6+ weapons on (like venom spam, reaver jet bikes in their face with heat lances, ect), and if you run the Baron up front you can take the S6+ shots on him (or take them on a couple of the beast masters first, they are basically worthless) and LOS the S5 and under shots to the beasts.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 05:40

Quote :
Baron up front you can take the S6+ shots on him (or take them on a couple of the beast masters first, they are basically worthless) and LOS the S5 and under shots to the beasts.
Thats a bad idea, better to just have some Khymera, they are threre for tanking purposes, 4++ invul is like a constant cover save. Place beastmaster at the front, with some beasties in base contact with him to play some Look Out, Sir! games with different wounds.


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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 09:08

Ahh Beastmasters are not worthless.

They are Characters, so a full unit has 5 characters, that can be used to feed into challanges if need be (like keeping a Stormshield Sargent away from the Rending attacks). They are the highest Ld of the squad if not accompanied by another IC. They can LOS! wounds away (albeit a 4+) and if you really want to start them with a Pain Token, run them in cover. 5+ then 5+ FnP is as good as a 3+. Run Baron in there for Stealth.

As for the OP, I looked at this at the start of 6th. Look Out Sir (before it got nerfed) made this a very possible and viable tactic. 5 CF's gave you 15 T5 (when at majority T5 ofc), then Baron would absorb the rest (if need be) but over 2 turns these guys move very quick.

Since the update to LOS! you now have to allocate the wound to the closest in base contact. Refering to the rules for wound allocation you pick a model and reduce his wounds to 0. Therefore, once a unit has resolved its wounds against you, you LOS! 3 wounds off, then you have to save the rest, which may be 1 or 2 of even 5 more wounds, It gets messy and negates its effectiveness.

Rapid firing Kabalites, Fire Warriors, Bolter's or Psycannons really make this a tough ask. Try it, but be prepared to loose one or two CF's along the way


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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 11:59

@Azdrubael - why is that a bad idea to have the duke up front, can you explain? It's isn't a theory, I've used it in many games and it has worked great. He can LOS anything away he wants, but it gives you the flexibility of taking certain wounds on your 2+ inv save. The odds of failing your LoS and then your 2++ are nil. Maybe it is the way my army list is built, but in most games my opponents do not have even close to enough time to focus fire on my beast pack with so many other more pressing targets.

@1++ - you're right, I spoke too liberally there. Beast masters are useful for their leadership, which is why I always hide one amongst the pack in the back, and they are great for challenges as you have laid out as they can tie up a strong opponent IC.
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 12:07

Guile22, on having Duke up front, that is very true the chances of him failing +2 save then the +2 lookout sir. But remember that SF is gone after it fails, so even tho he wont die there, he is then open for everything after that Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 21:51

Good point darklight! In the end the game is still dice, if you fail two consecutive 2++ rolls then either the dice gods are against you or your enemy just shot you a $*%# load of times! In the latter case this isn't bad news, I roll with Eldrad as an ally casting doom on 2 targets a turn before I splinterborne them to death, I am very happy if they focus that much fire on the Baron and his crew instead!
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 09:13

Is there a bold general here to try a list with grotesques, beasts (fiends included) and talos/cronos? monster circus anyone???? I cant try it right now but it can be really crazy to play.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 09:27

@Eldur wrote:
Is there a bold general here to try a list with grotesques, beasts (fiends included) and talos/cronos? monster circus anyone???? I cant try it right now but it can be really crazy to play.

When I have the units, sure Wink but that will be a while before I get. And will only be for fun games tho, not any competitive :p

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PostSubject: Re: Clawed fiends unit   Clawed fiends unit I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 18:43

I use Grots, beasts (with out fiends of course) and Tallos in my current list the real problem is other dark eldar!
darn 4+ posioned shots are BS!
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