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Shadowfield84
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PostSubject: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 08:48

Hi fellow denizens of Commorragh,

I have a 'casual/competitive' game coming up against a friend of mine who plays Tau. I am very new to Dark Eldar and have no idea where to start in preparing for the upcoming battle. I'm not quite sure what he will be bringing but i imagine it will consist of a couple of Hammerheads, Broadsides, Fire Warriors, Devilfish, a couple of Piranhas, crisis battlesuits, to be honest im not exactly sure but i do expect to face some nasty railgun fire.....

I'm thinking of running a Wych heavy 1850 list:

Duke Sliscus

Blasterborn x 3 - Venon, Ex.Can, NS

Blasterborn x 3 - Venom, Ex.Can, NS

Trueborn x 3 - Venom, Ex.Can, NS

Warriors x 9 (Duke Starts Here) - Raider, SR, NS

Wyches x 8, HEK, PGL, VB, HWG - Raider (Dissie or Lance?)

Wyches x 8, HEK, PGL, VB, HWG - Raider

Wyches x 5 HWG - Venom, Ex.Can

Reavers x 9, HL x 3, Champ, VB

Ravager, NS

Ravager, NS

Voidraven

Not exactly sure what it comes to but we are happy if its a little over or under. If the Duke starts in the Warrior boat, can he disembark and re-embark a Wych boat in the same turn? I know im lacking a Haemy, should i try and squeeze one in? Also being so new to Dark Eldar (and coming from a Blood Angel army) im still a little tentative zooming my boats up the board for fear of them dying. I've been playing fairly conservative and managing to scrape out narrow victories, should I be more aggressive and charge up the board? I cant outshoot Tau so i guess my strenght would be in speed and assault, maybe a squad of incubi and an archon would be in order?

Game is in 3 days, help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks all!!
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 09:56

Always zoom your army up! Dark eldar hit incredibly hard, things will die and you will lose a lot of stuff BUT so will your opponent if not lose more!

I think a smart Tau player can be a very difficult enemy for us- wounding on a 2+ with there normal guns is not nice let alone glancing on a 5+. A wych list is best against these guys in my experience. Don't try and out shoot them, get into CC as soon as possible. A 10 man wych squad even after overwatch will take out a 10 man fire warrior team- scratch that a 5 man wych squad after overwatch will rip through firewarriors. But you do want to have a phantasm grenade launcher in each wych squad- just to get you that cover save when charging in.
Wyches work very well with a haemocules as well, just for the FnP to make them a bit more durable.

I would drop the trueborn squad in the venom and replace with another 5 wyches in venom or some incubi to deal with battle suits which are much better in CC then you expect.

Also make sure to concentrate your army- Rail guns will always hit and destroy you unless you are using Line of sight (LoS) blocking terrain. Take your entire army and zoom up the flank with most cover and jump from combat to combat- remember you can't be shot at when in combat! If he takes broadsides- those guys are a nightmare because of great wound allocation with shield drones etc- a combination of disintergrator and poison shots are the best way to deal with them if you can't get into close combat.

Also when the Tau lose in Close combat, often they are near the rear of the board to make use of there range potential, there low leadership also means that quite often they will run off just make sure you can consolidate into cover- basically try and not let them shoot hense the concentrated force idea- take away everything in the threat bubble then let NS take away the normal guys range advantage (and always watch out for markerlights- there is nothing to do against these except rely on the crappy ballistic skill of the drone!)


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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 10:00

@Shadowfield84 wrote:
If the Duke starts in the Warrior boat, can he disembark and re-embark a Wych boat in the same turn?

No.

List isn't bad, Tau bring alot of fire power but we do too. First thing to start with is terrain. Don't be tight on LOS blocking stuff, you're opponent will want it too....

Railguns are nasty as they are auto-pen so all those NS are pointless UNLESS they are for the protection of small arms fire and Plasma rifles, then OK, but make sure you use them to their full advantage (pre measure)

Know their tricks. The FAQ has buffed their skimmers giving a 3+ or even 2+ cover save to shots from over 12" so you ether want to get close to negate it, Blasterborn or Haywire Wyches do the trick here (watch for Fletchets). Shooting at Broadsides is like shooting at Obliterators, so try to hit them with Lances to double them out.

I would actually concider 2 or even 3 Razorwing Jetfighters as your main contributor here - field them with Dissies but don't take the Splinter Cannon upgrade as you can only shoot 2 missiles and 2 other (Dissies) per turn, but the only thing he has to shoot at them will be the twinlinked Railguns off the Broadsides, still 6's to hit. If possible, point Venoms and DL's at the Broadsides first up, still giving yourself cover on the return volley, to give your Razorwings a chance - because when they come on, they will be brutal.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 10:46

Problem with doubling them out is that if he is sensible he will put shield drones in the front and with a 4++ quite often you lose most if not all of your DL wounds and even if he takes one, he will take it on the drone- but it can still work as long as you have enough lances.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 11:06

Thanks for the quick replies!

I actually only put that 3 man trueborn unit in for the extra venom, and I only have the one jet fighter so no go on the three flyers... I could drop the flyer and run with another ravager freeing up some points? Nothing annoys me more than my flyer coming in on turn 4.

So tactically wise I should just rush up the board and get into his face, even if that means turbo boosting? And hide in cover? I hate loosing a turn of shooting when flying up the board..... We generally don't have that much LOS blocking terrain, I was thinking of castling up on deployment and rushing down one flank focusing on one part of his army at a time. Maybe use the reaviers to bladevane some stuff before I get a chance to use their heat lances. He doesn't like to play objectives so purge the alien it will be.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 15:58

Here is a battle report on how not to play against TAU. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 18:23

I would say Flickerfields on every vechicle that doesn't have one, as his Markerlights can remove Jink and Cover saves leaving our lightweight paper vechicles horribly exposed. I would drop the non Blaster Trueborn and their Venom to add the Flickerfields to your other units. Maybe consider splitting up the Reavers into 3 units of 3 since Tau generally lack quantity of fire, so the more units you have to saturate him with the more his shooting will be thinned out to deal with each of your units.

Also, do you know if he has any of the Forge World Tau models like the Tetra's (which make Tau horribly amazing at shooting due to Four Markerlights per Tetra on BS3 or can upgrade to BS4) or the XV9's Hazard Suits, which can be equipped with Phased Ion Guns which ignore cover. Though if he sticks to the codex purely he will only have generally BS3 to use those Markerlights from the Pathfinders and Marker Drones attached to units (at the cost of 3 wyches per Marker Drone).

Railguns and anything with Missle Pods(especially twin-linked) should be top priority as between those 2 they can blast anything we have apart.

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 19:36

@KnightSeerValkia wrote:

Also, do you know if he has any of the Forge World Tau models like the Tetra's (which make Tau horribly amazing at shooting due to Four Markerlights per Tetra on BS3 or can upgrade to BS4)

I have to say tetras are pretty evil especially with a 3+ jink save for moving against all shooting from more than 12" away (2+ in ruins) as disruption pods give shrouding (+2 to cover saves). The problem is they make the rest of the armies shooting really good but any shots directed at them are not shots directed at the rest of the army.

Disruption pods are fantastic this edition giving hammer heads and devilish that move 3+ jink saves or 2+ cover saves if the tank is in a ruin, this can really make them tough to take out. It also helps keep the Tau players minimal scoring units alive, as those devil fish are impressively tough!

Tau Mech is very strong this edition as a result, and should not be underestimated! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 00:33

Very true, but fortunately we can run the most numerous anti tank in the game- in my opinion. Just slam a couple of haywires into them and overwhelm in close combat.
Best of luck!

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 06:10

ok well he definately doesnt have any Forgeworld stuff. I am toying with the idea of running a WWP foot list, no idea of the make up yet. Do you think this would be possible?

I do have 5 scourges, was thinking of throwing a unit in to just suprise him a little with the deep strike... so many options no idea what to run... would also like to see what an Archon with some Incubi could do if i manage to get them into combat, but that would probably mean losing a squad of blasterborn or wyches... any thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 10:18

You can't out shoot the Tau and wwp have been seriously nerfed. Against that much firepower I would utilise our speed and maneuverability and stick to the transport method Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 10:46

I don't think WWP is a good idea vs Tau as you want to get close quick. That means Turbo-boosting, Deep striking or Outflanking.

Turbo Boosting, in a V type formation, up a flank is a pretty good tactic, the 4+ cover save is better than the 5+ Flickerfield, and you can get in close from T2, as thats essentially what you want to do.

I ran a list (in 5th) of Venom spam carrying Haywire Wyche bombs (ahead of my time I know) and crushed my Tau opponent by T4. The strategy was to get there quick, offer target saturation, unit redundancy and high speed and it worked nicely.

Also, just another thought, if he fields a unit of Marker Lighters get rid of them quick. When used well, they are much more scary than TL Railguns!! Reavers bladevaning is the best answer with their move 12" then TB 36"

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 12:35

Hi

I play both Dark Eldar and Tau, and I'd have to say that Tau is daunting prospect for Dark Eldar and perhaps the least desirable opponent. I'll give you a run down of their strengths and weaknesses and what I would to counter Tau.

Strengths:
High power, long range weapons - Pulse rifles are nasty, 30' range, AP5 S5. These decimate most basic infantry. Rail guns are monster weapons are will destroy most things they are pointed at, the Hammerhead's rail gun also has a large blast (strength 6 ap4 shot) this will massacre our troops.

Tau troops have a decent armour save of 4+, Devilfish have front armour of 12 and the Hammerheads have 13 as well as 3+ jink save with disruption pods. Suits can add 4+ invul save with either drones or shield generators.

Mobility. Tau is a mobile army, the battle suits can deep-strike and jump-shoot-jump out of cover, the tanks are skimmers and can fire like a fast vehicle with the right wear gear. Also due to the changes to rapid fire weapons, fire warriors can move and shoot and have two-shots at 15'.

Adaptability. The battle suits can be customised to fight any foe. If I were going against DE I would bring missile pods, burst cannons and deep-striking twin-linked flamers on battle suits. These configurations make a bloody (and crispy mess) of light infantry.

Weaknesses:
Average ballistic skill. Tau aren't great at shooting, they need 4's to hit but this can be negated by marker lights and targeting arrays on battle suits. Take these out as priority. Tau work synergistic army try to break this synergy early.

Low leadership; Fire warriors have a low leadership value (7) use this to your advantage. This can be overcome by adding a sergeant (Shas'ui) to the unit and bonding knives allow them to regroup at normal leadership below 25%.

Poor close combat ability. Tau can't punch through a wet paper bag in close quarters. Kabalite warriors will beat them in hand-to-hand and wyches will butcher them. Tau can bring Kroot with them but they have no armour save as standard (they can purchase a 6+ one if they want but it's not worth the points) Kroot hounds aren't bad as they are I5 and get 3 attacks on the charge.

Tactics: Looking at your list I would suggest the following:

Deploy everything in cover, try to minimise your opponent’s alpha-strike. Tau are excellent alpha strikers, and they can ruin your day, so learn to love the cover.

Use the Reavers to kill the Fire warriors. I don't think the arena champ is worth the points. Use cluster caltrops and blade vane the hell out of troops on the first turn if possible. This will also put the reavers on the back of his deployment zone, which should upset him and disrupt his plans. I would also use them in groups of 3 x 3. Or split them as one group of 6 and another 3 but ALWAYS take caltrops, remember to give your opponent lots of targets, try not to let him concentrate fire.

Ravagers should be targeting the Hammerheads. Concentrate fire systematically until it blows up then move on to the next one. Don't be tempted to split fire amongst vehicles. We work best by exterminating one part of his army then moving on.

Take Dark Lances on your transports, these are useful.

Try to take out markerlight carriers quickly (path finders and Tetras, sometimes drones) this will reduce the effectiveness of his shooting.

Wyches with haywire grenades are great as emergency tank hunters but don't relay on them as such; his vehicles are fast and will probably out manoeuvre you but for two points a model ALWAYS take them. Try to get pain tokens on your Wyches ASAP, maybe attach a Haemonculus to them and share that pain! Beware of trying to take battlesuits and broadsides in cc. They are tough, strong and have good armour saves. Broadsides have 2+ armour, battlesuits have 3+ and both have the potential to take 4+ invul. I had two broadsides tie up a dedicated cc squad for 4 game turns once! If you must take them down in cc use Incubi and Husk blade Archon. Blaster born are good for shooting them, otherwise volume of fire is good alternative here. Splinterborn (2 splinter cannon and 3 carbines) and venom with extra cannon is ideal for this purpose. Throw enough shots out and he'll role 1's eventually.

So use your speed, reduce his firing lanes, get in cc quickly and with a bit of luck it should go your way.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 08:40

Thanks all for the great input!

ok so taking in some advice, this is what im thinking:

Duke Sliscus
Haemy, LG, VB
Haemy, LG, VB

Blasterborn x 3
Venom, Ex.Can

Warriors x 8 (Duke)
Raider, SR

Wyches x 8, HEK, PGL, VB, HWG (Haemy)
Raider

Wyches x 8, HEK, PGL, VB, HWG (Haemy)
Raider

Wyches x 5, HWG
Venom, Ex.Can

Wyches x 5, HWG
Venom, Ex.Can

Reavers x 6, HL x 2, CC

Reavers x 6, HL x 2, CC

Ravager

Ravager

Ravager

my biggest concern is that i have so many kill points on the board and they are all paper aeroplanes. I guess it does give me the freedom to just go all out aggression and try and table him, im thinking of dropping the LG on the Haemys and taking arena champions with the reavers, thoughts?? my apologies if this is in the wrong thread, i was after tactical advice and list advice too.

Cheers! games tomorrow night btw
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 08:57

Don't need arena champions rally, but you may be thankful for the LGs, they are pretty nasty for softening up troops in cover.

I might even drop a ravager in exchange for another unit of wyches; the Tau are great at taking out our vehicles and its hard to take down there vehicles. Don't try and out shoot them, think your best chance is to play to your strengths i.e/ Close combat not trying to out shoot the shootiest army!

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 09:29

Concentrate firepower on a unit untill it is destroyed. Keep to cover and have fun mate!

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 09:56

I would second Grub's opinion and drop the arena champion, you'll murder Tau in CC anyway (besides use bladevanes and Cluster Caltrops as much as possible) and the LG is more useful for flushing out pesky units in cover.

Also, the disruption doesn't work within 12' so get close and shoot to negate it and use haywire but beware of flechette dischargers; auto hit, wounds on 4+, they can make a mess of troops. He take these on his tanks and transports. I don't see them that often but be aware that they could be used.
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 10:18

Arena champions shouldn't be dismissed so quickly, the boost to LD9 is invaluable on a unit that falls back 3d6. Worth considering at any rate, even if you don't think you need the extra combat potential. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 13:20

I forgot about the leadership boost Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 14 2012, 22:42

Just a matter of what points you have left I guess

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 15 2012, 23:47



Thanks all for the tips, played the game last night and managed to win on secondary objectives (luckily). I ended up running the second list, but dropped a few things and brought in a voidraven bomber. I didn't realise but he had an ADL with las cannon and castled up n the corner with two broadsides. I managed to blow up one of his hammerheads first turn, I was really surprised with the reavers too, that 3+ cover save is priceless! A squad of 6 ate fire from 20 fire warriors and a devilish, and didn't take a loss!! Than the wyches pretty much wrecked everything except his last hammerhead. Broadsides proved to be a pain though as I just couldn't get to them castled up behind the defence line...

On another note the voidraven bomber was useless, I did try and bomb his last hammerhead on turn 4, got a hit marker than rolled a 1 for penetration!!! Couldn't believe it, I also fired with the void lances and rolled two 1's, unbelievable...

Anyway, thanks everyone!! Game won 10-9 not so many kill points next time, and both the ravagers survived, he didn't even shoot at them, target saturation for the win!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 16 2012, 09:39

Well done- a close game is always better than a wipe out. Glad it went well. I think if you follow the tips given in this thread for most battles, you will find a decent success rate!

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PostSubject: Re: Tactics vs Tau   Tactics vs Tau I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 16 2012, 21:11

@Shadowfield84 wrote:
On another note the voidraven bomber was useless, I did try and bomb his last hammerhead on turn 4, got a hit marker than rolled a 1 for penetration!!! Couldn't believe it, I also fired with the void lances and rolled two 1's, unbelievable...

Bad rolling doesn't make it useless.

Glad you won the game tho

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