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 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament

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Massaen
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PostSubject: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 01:56

What do you think, am I nuts?

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1 Farseer (HQ) [EL], 208 pts ( Doom ; Eldritch Storm ; Guide ; Mind War ; Runes of Warding; Spirit Stones; Eldar Jetbike; Singing Spear)

3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron (Troops) [EL], 66 pts

1 Baron Sathonyx, 105 pts

1 Haemonculus, 90 pts (Venom Blade; Webway Portal x1)

4 Wracks, 110 pts
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

5 Kabalite Warriors, 115 pts
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

5 Kabalite Warriors, 115 pts
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

5 Kabalite Warriors, 115 pts
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

15 Hellion, 240 pts

5 Beastmasters, 270 pts
10 Khymerae
6 Razorwing Flocks

1 Ravager, 105 pts
1 Ravager, 105 pts
1 Ravager, 105 pts

its easy enough to move things around to bring different heavy support: 1 void raven/ 2 ravagers, 2 void raven/1 ravager, or even just 2 void ravens. I think I prefer the 1 void/2ravagers but the list is still very light on anti tank.

Am I nuts? How many lances do we need?
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 02:12

In my experience, the beasts are so massively over rated it's not funny. On paper they look pretty good but on the table I found them lack luster for their cost. DE need AT all across the force so that you have options. In your list right now, kill the 3 heavies and the enemy Armour is almost unkillable. You have a huge amount of points tied up in a farseer who serves very little function I can see so he would be my first change.

Loose the beasts as the baron should be with the hellions.

I would then look at adding blasters to the squads or adding a raider or 2

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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 10 2012, 20:28

I've got to disagree with massaen about the beasts. It took a lot of persuading for me to try them out but now they are probably the first thing in my list. In a recent tournament in one game they took down 3 units of 10 Immortals, in another 10 cultists, 10 CSM and then legged it back across the board to do in 12 Berzerkers. In other games they have soaked up so much firepower and tied up so many units they have been invaluable. The Baron should be running with them. With that in mind I would ditch the Hellions. I'd also dump the wracks and Heamonculus.

I've also seen a downturn in the number of vehicles fielded and an increase in infantry numbers. So I'd suggest units of 5 haywire wyches in venoms, probably 2, an ADL with quad gun and a unit of warriors to man the gun. Should be doable with the points from above.

The quad gun is a highly versatile weapon, great for flyers and light armour alike, especially with the farseer being able to roll on Divination. For the points you've spent would you not be better with Eldrad anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 11 2012, 04:40

After hundreds of lists, for the Nov HoH I will use this one:

1750 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster - I can skin a buck, run a trout–line, and all my rowdy friends are coming over for MURDER tonight.

1 Baron Sathonyx, 105 pts ( Warlord)

4 Kabalite Trueborn, 186 pts (Blaster x4; Haywire Grenades)
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

3 Kabalite Trueborn, 162 pts (Dark Lance x2; Haywire Grenades)
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

5 Kabalite Warriors, 130 pts (Blaster x1)
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

5 Kabalite Warriors, 130 pts (Blaster x1)
1 Venom (Splinter Cannon; Grisly Trophies)

10 Kabalite Warriors, 185 pts (Blaster x1; Splinter Cannon x1)
1 Raider (Splinter Racks)

10 Kabalite Warriors, 185 pts (Blaster x1; Splinter Cannon x1)
1 Raider (Splinter Racks)

5 Beastmasters, 280 pts
10 Khymerae
1 Clawed Fiend
4 Razorwing Flocks

1 Ravager, 105 pts
1 Ravager, 105 pts
1 Voidraven Bomber, 175 pts (Shatterfield Missile x2; Flickerfield)

((1748))

I didnt mention before, items of note on the tournament format-

its something like the proposed format for 2013 BAO: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/10/10/community-feedback-wanted/

...two of the book missions are played each round with one counting as 4vp and the other 3 (winning them..) first-blood, warlord, and linebreaker each count as 1vp also. in the scouring and big guns mission types additional vps for fast or heavy units killed can be earned (as normal.... Razz ) Thats a total of 10vp* each round. At BAO its straight up W/L/D at HoH there will be a margin (not sure what as this is the first BAO type format.)

the HoH is 3 rounds, will have 1 of each deploy. uses alternative placement for terrain, mysterious terrain and objectives, and for now the mission format/victory point system of the BAO.

The final waffle was between the Barons Hellions or the Beasts. For lots of reasons this that and the other Im going with the beasts. (probably.)

study

Edit: I missed your post kenny.

I agree with most of what you said.

i dont like using quad gun with most DE lists because it is static. although it is an awesome weapon, its about manning it. i built many lists and use quad guns often in testing/pickup.

For wyches i just dont like them without fnp which means right now I dont like them. I used 20-30-45 for the last two years in 5th edition.

The beasts are almost always awesome. The farseer gave them a little extra umph that I think I can makeup with lances. For psychic defense it doesn't seem necessary for many reasons, one being the meta of the tourney. Eldrad and Ahriman might even be there, but ill just shoot them dead etc.

Please dont double post. If you want to add infomation, use the edit button on the top right of the post -Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod SR-


Last edited by ShotDownMind on Sun Nov 11 2012, 04:47; edited 1 time in total
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 11 2012, 04:47

After running the exact unit you have in 2 separate events, I am more convinced than ever they are no good enough for the cost

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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 11 2012, 05:07

In 6e Ive run this beast unit through 5 events and something like 60+ games now.

Edit: In most games/events I have both the beasts and the hellions, and far fewer lances. Tomorrow I will give up one (the hellions) for lances.

Just combining more double posts. Just please use the edit button Razz -Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod SR-
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 11 2012, 14:51

60+ games in the last 4 months! You are doing well. i wish i could play a game every second day!

Regardless, my experince with them has been poor at best. Any necron force will laugh at them and tesla them to death and they lack any real punch against MEQ units like grey hunters or CSM. With no baron (and thus no H&R, stealth or grenades) they only get worse.

On paper the beasts look nasty, in game though - they are open to being flanked due to the footprint and ID plays havoc with the razorwings. Combined with relying on them to win combats... its just asking to fail as you rely on dice to win it for you.

10 khymera is 3 dead marines
4 RW flocks is 2-3 dead marines
1 clawed fiend is 0-1 dead marine
5 beast masters is 0-1 dead marine

Your going to avarage 6 marines on the charge IF you have no cover to worry about or have the baron with them. The baron should kill 1 more marine on the charge. 385 points for 7 dead marines... and thats assuming you have not taken casualties on the way in. As you can see the khymera are the ones doing the heavy lifting in combat AND being relied on to save the unit from attacks. If you try this on a 10 strong grey hunter pack with a banner, your going to loose as the number of kills basically halves (thanks to the reroll 1's) and then they will smash you and win combat. The wolves are less than half the cost as well.

If you like them and make them work - awesome. In my experience, they will stay on the shelf as a fun unit and not for a tourney

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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 11 2012, 15:13

I dont charge 10 space marines. Thats silly.

You charge 2 vehicles and 6 marines. Or you string out the Beast unit appropriatly. Different initiative steps will usually allow you to dictate the combat. You want to wreck vehicles and tie or win combat just enough to be stuck in combat.

Are you charging 10 marines with your Beast units? It seems like you are trying to win vs full size units and I am trying to kill tanks and vehicles and get stuck in combat with small units that I can hit and run off of or finish in two rounds and kill more tanks.

The Hellions are/were great as a 2nd wave an 'landing pad' unit for baron to do it all again. Because we all know that the Beasts die eventually. That is not sage advice.

You are just wrong. Apologies. Almost none of your post applies because it doesn't happen. If this is happening to you or you are letting it then That is the actual problem, not the Beasts. Units die in 40k - I use the beasts as a anti tank wave that usually keeps the rest of the murder fleet much more alive to do a lot more killing. Sometimes they do A Lot more. Even if somehow 10 marines catch the beasts before they are shot at or charge you first, the unit has defensive grenades and high initiative and grisly trophies around. It probably wont end up a horrible thing for the dark eldar. Even if the beasts run and aren't caught they have baron with them... etc etc etc etc. bottom line is your mathhammer scenario is not representing much.

Necrons are one of the tastiest to chomp on, and the beasts are fast enough to pull off the same trick vs flyer circus. They have major range issues that allow you to dictate the battle. Ive yet to see any flyer circus damage the beasts significantly with just the flyers. thats if they can even shoot them. etc etc etc. again. many games vs many cuthroat opponents vs what... "any necron force..." Wrong again.

Edit: Also in the first post the Beast unit is supercharged by the farseer. Put that into your mathhammer for fun. Fearless beasts, invisible beasts, beasts rerolling to hit, your unit doomed, etc etc.

When you use such broad strokes it shows a real lack of experience - I think, and not just with Dark Eldar but on the tabletop in general. I am not unfamiliar with mathhammer or any of the numbers involved with the dark eldar units vs most other units in the game.

I doubt very many DE generals who use Beasts effectively would charge 10 marines very often. Specially Grey Hunters. Or Grey Knights with whatever. Thats a horrible horrible matchup and not a usual one on a competitive tabletop. Not what you judge the Beast Units effectiveness or usefulness in a list for a tournament. Thats basically sillytalk. There is a reason and a way for everything. have I done it, will I again, is there a time and a way to do it? Of course. Sheesh.

And last one. Again to reiterate if you want to add infomation, please use the edit button -Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod SR-
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 11 2012, 15:56

ShotDownMind wrote:

When you use such broad strokes it shows a real lack of experience - I think, and not just with Dark Eldar but on the tabletop in general.

Although, personally I have seen beasts put to good use this edition, to say Massean lacks experience is laughable when he is one of the more talented tournament players on this forum. To list some of his recent 6th edition exploits (he used beasts at the masters):

European Team Championships 2012

West Australian 40k masters

That being said 6th has been good for beasts with the increased speed and vehicles being a lot easier to hit. So I definitely wouldn't discount them.


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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 11 2012, 23:58

Wow, way to be rude man. There was no need for that little attack. It's a unit I have little time for based of my experience despite buying and painting it and I was giving you my experience with it rather than just bowing to the common wisdom.

It must be a meta thing then as the situations I have faced (above) occur a lot. Necrons vehicles with AV11 don't worry to much about beasts and even less when they are flyers. Packs of 10 grey hunters are common builds on the tourney scene with just a handful of rhinos or pods. In fact, the semi or fully flying circus for necrons and the hunter wave of space wolves are pretty common. In both cases the beasts fail. Add to that guard mech with artillery (hello ID with sniping thanks to barrage) and grey knights and you have a unit that has problems with 4 very strong builds.

Eh, I will bow out and now and wish you the best with your list.

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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 06:17

Hint: you shoot things before you charge them. Dont charge 10 man GH packs.

I didnt mean for it to be a nasty attack. Its just that you dont use Beast unit vs 10 GH so why compare.

SW and CronAir are not Bad matchups for DE or even DE with beast unit in it, thats just wrong analysis also.

Its just how it goes. I play DE all day every day and waffle between beasts and tons of other killy stuff all the time, but not for any of the reasons you outlined, which mostly are entirely untrue.

Victory and "Best General" Today vs Imperial Guard - Weird Tau/Eldar - and CronAir



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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 07:28

ShotDownMind wrote:
Hint: you shoot things before you charge them. Dont charge 10 man GH packs.

I didnt mean for it to be a nasty attack.

So you drop another nasty attack with your hint and then apologies? Pretty empty apology then.

People leave their advice from their experience. If you don't like it ignore it, or debated it, but no need to attack them. Behaviour like that will not be tolerated on this forum. Either you discuss things civilly, or not at all.

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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 12:05

The second list is better than the first. Th original list had a very bloated Farseer - I would reccomend either using Eldrad or a cheap Farseer with one power (on foot or bike depending on who he's joining).

Regarding Beasts there were a bit inconsistent in 5th edition, but the change in 6th and the inclusion of the Baron makes them very good now. So good in fact many players are using the Baron with beasts rather than Hellions even though the Hellions are troops with the Baron. The Baron giving better leadership, grenades plus Hit and Run to the Beasts solves most of the Beasts issues.

However the Beasts do have their issues and are not a tough deathstar. Their main benefits are their speed and number of attacks compared to more common deathstars (such as terminators) and the other side of this is their fragility.

As Massaen pointed out Necons can be a problem for them. Tesla in general is great against the krymera (which would be much happier receiving single shot lascannon shots) and the Annihilation Barges and Nightscythes can ruin the unit with their multiple instant killing attacks. As you faced Cron-Air I'd be interested to hear you experiences.

I'd recomment you drop the Clawed Fiend, he's not that good, and you would be much better served with 2 extra razorwing flocks.

How did the Dark Lance Trueborn do ? Do you think you would have been better served with another blasterborn unit

Massaen: Your experienced kills with the Beasts seems a bit low, but you are close to the mark, particularly with your comment that grey hunters rerolling 1's will reduce the casulaties. However I find it's the razorwings that does the heavy work against marines because although they wound less, half their wounds ignore the marine armour save.

Taking a unit of Baron, 5 Beastmasters, 10 Krymerae & 6 Razorwing Flocks I math-hammered an average of 8.7 MEQ kills on the charge, and 6.8 Grey Hunter kills on the charge. Perfect to finish them off in the second round (or hit and run ). But that's that wouldn't be expected of a unit costing 375 points. Their expensive, but nothing else can move at that speed (without a transport) and hit that hard in the DE army. Ideally I've found weakening a full unit by 2-3 models makes it easy for the flocks to run through them easily (anymore and a full beastmaster unit will kill them on the turn they charge).

To minimise casualties I always challenge with a beastmaster to occupy any sergeant with a powerfist. Against units with multiple characters with powerfists I put the krymerae at the front to stop the razorwings being instant killed.

Overall I've found the beastmasters a very viable assault unit, particularly when combined with other assault units (I also use a unit of wyches and a unit wracks in raiders). However as you said everyone's mileage will vary with their local meta.

Rathstar

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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 12 2012, 12:55

I didnt think I wasent being civil, this is a (evil dark eldar) 40k forum. Apologies

Understand that communication is difficult over the internet, so what could sound helpful and friendly in your head could come across as sarcastic and snide. Just be aware of communication barriers in future.


Ive learned to love the Dark Lance Trueborn, somehow one blasterborn and one sniperborn are easier to manage then 2 blasterborn. The Sniperborn live though most games and rip off more lance shots through the game/games then blasters (lately anyways.)

Double post merged - Cavash.
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 18:50

interesting thoughts on the split between lanceborn and blasterborn, but what is the purpose of the haywires on them??? Do you really expect to get any use out of them???

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PostSubject: Re: 1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament   1750 sDm Kabal for the Hall Of Heroes Nov Tournament I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 13 2012, 23:46

The haywire on the sniperborn no. The haywire on the blasterborn gets use all of the time.

I rarely have the points for the haywire on trueborn, its not a priority. The blasterborn often end up in bad places for xeno and it never hurts to try for a 10-12 inch charge to finish off last hull point etc.

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