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 Scoring units and denial units

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 19:56

So with 6th asking us to disembark from transports in order to hold an obj are people finding that claiming objectives is a tough thing to do, esp when we go first, and have that last turn were we get blown off the damn thing.....

I'm thinking that if we build lists and play them out where we incorporate scoring units that hold objectives well, but also get as many denial units in as posible too take care of those enemy objectives, as well as getting a Linebreaker score too.

As I'm typing this I'm immediately thinking Wracks for scoring. T4 w/ FnP. Can't get any buffs to cover but if Night falls on T5 that does help against ranged attacks for the end part of the game. Thinking outside the box, Maybe if we were to field 6 units of 3, and have 2 of these 3 man units each hold an obj (3 objectives) where by when the front (or lets say "non-hidden") units gets blown away, we are still in control of the obj. By doing this we've unlocked 6 Venoms, which is enough to ice 10 marines a turn.

As for the denial units, I'm looking at Reavers. T4 with Cover Saves and can reach out 48" away. Non vehicle so they qualify as Denial units. Premeasuring goes towards our late game contesting and we can keep them safely back, or even off the table if need be.

A third idea I wanted to propose is that, what if intend to go second. Going second means we can zoom up and claim those obj as the last play of the game, but going second means we have to weather the storm of enemy fire T1.

Would like to hear some thoughts on claiming and denial units. Are people happy with cheap camping units, or is the best strategy DE have is to litterally slam everything down ones throat, up one flank.

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 20:30

I would have to agree. Wracks are our best scoring unit by far. Reavers are our best linebreaker and denial unit. Not to say that Warriors and Wyches don't have their roles, but they just can't compete with T4 FnP in cover with Liquifiers.
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 21:03

Depends on what the competition is. Survival? Yes Wracks can do that slightly better (though if you only have a 3 man squad will they survive longer then a 5 man warrior squad?). Providing relevant shooting? Warriors do that much better. They can also pick up a pain token from a haemonculus (you don't need to keep him there) and make use of cover so those two advantages aren't necessarily the Wracks alone. To me it seems more like a choice between T4 and being able to shoot and honestly I'd rather have guys who can fight for me and then sit on an objective at the end then a group that can only sit on the objective and hope they don't die.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 21:18

I disagree on wracks being the best scoring units because they can't actually do anything while they are sitting on an objective, warriors can be pumping out decend ranged power while they are camping an objective

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 21:41

One thing you have to remember is that most objectives will not be in your deployment zone, and objectives tend to be a magnet for CC. Therefore, the unit won't be shooting for long before it is charged. Armor aside because of cover; T4, template weapons, and poison CC make Wracks a better choice. You also aren't tempted to not have them go to ground so they can shoot. Remember that this topic is scoring units, not best all around troop choice.
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 22:11

have to say i have been ignoring objectives till im in aposition to safely have my guys take it so conecntrating on the things that will be blasting my troops late game and clearing the mjority of the objectives before i even look like im heading towards them to get out.

as Bruce says objectives end up as a major contention point especially for late game combat so why stick our frail elf bodies near that until we have the clear advantage?
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 22:27

I agree. I would much rather ignore them until the very end and spend my time killing off their scoring units so that when the time comes my weak little bodys can hide in cover etc on only a few points and still win.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 22:56

@Archon Bruce wrote:
objectives tend to be a magnet for CC. Therefore, the unit won't be shooting for long before it is charged.

You're only getting charged because your wracks are sitting on the objective. If your warriors are elsewhere shooting stuff then they don't need to worry about melee until they actually need to go contest the objective (and hopefully you can concentrate fire and wipe them out without melee at all). Also while Wracks are better melee then Warriors lets not sing their melee praises that strongly. They are still only 3 models with unimpressive combat ability. Anything that calls itself a dedicated melee unit should be able to take them (and even things that don't consider themselves a dedicated melee unit has a shot).

@Archon Bruce wrote:
Remember that this topic is scoring units, not best all around troop choice.

I guess my main objection is I don't think buying a unit just to sit on an objective is a good way to spend points. I'd rather have a unit who can help me fight and win and then at the end of the fight go sit on the objective. So... I do think the "better" troop is also the "better" scoring unit.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 23:16

If your only looking for the best scoring unit we have access to it's probably 10 wraith guard with a spirit seer using conceal and Eldrad fortuning them, it's really hard to kill with its 6T 3+/5+ cover with re-rolls

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 00:50

I'm definitely getting the feeling that effectiveness comes down to ones playstyle. Don't forget that 3 Wracks unlocks a Venom, which shoots farther than the Warriors. And also we aren't limited to just 3 Wracks, 5 w/ a Liquifier would be a good camping unit also.
And in regards to Overwatch would one d3 flamer be better than five BS1 Warriors...?

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 00:55

@1++ wrote:
Don't forget that 3 Wracks unlocks a Venom, which shoots farther than the Warriors.

As does five warriors... They're not mutually exclusive.

@1++ wrote:
And also we aren't limited to just 3 Wracks, 5 w/ a Liquifier would be a good camping unit also.
And in regards to Overwatch would one d3 flamer be better than five BS1 Warriors...?

And you're not limited to five warriors. As for Overwatch, maybe a Liquifier might do better then 5 guys on overwatch. Would it do more then all the shooting the warriors would have done over the course of the game? Perhaps if you move about and make best use of that Liquifier the answer would be yes, sitting on an objective though? Probably not.
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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 02:12

I think playstyle may be indicitive here. I usually pick an objective deep in enemy territory that is isolated somewhat. I soften it up with a Reaver squad and some Splinterfire, then Liquify and charge. 5 man works fine for me. I used to be of the same opinion about continued output from warriors, but my playtesting has shown time and time again that Wracks are more reliable at clearing and holding objectives. Maybe it's because I always seem to roll a 1 or 2 on Liquifier AP. Wink
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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 04:37

@Archon Bruce wrote:
Maybe it's because I always seem to roll a 1 or 2 on Liquifier AP. Wink

HA! You and me both Laughing

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 07:56

If you are looking at just one aspect of a unit then sure Wracks are better at HOLDING objectives than Warriors and Wyches. Are they better allround and more competitive in an all commers competitive list? hell no.

Sure Talos is the best CC heavy unit, but is it the best heavy choice? no. Thats Ravagers....

I think Wracks are fun to play with, and I really like them when playing with friends and stuff, but i dont bring them to competitive events. Warriors can do so much more.

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 15:33

@Darklight wrote:
If you are looking at just one aspect of a unit then sure Wracks are better at HOLDING objectives than Warriors and Wyches. Are they better allround and more competitive in an all commers competitive list? hell no.

I was trying to see your viewpoint until you said this. I can tell you that Wracks definitely have a place in an all commers competitive list. They are especially useful as a counterbalance to our poison shooting against T3 armies.

Edit: I should reread my posts before I send. I withdraw my last statement. Sorry, the DE in me coming out.

Dont worry, I got you. Just remember to use the edit button next time -Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod SR-


Last edited by Archon Bruce on Fri Nov 09 2012, 15:49; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 15:44

@Archon Bruce wrote:
I should reread my posts before I send. I withdraw my last statement. Sorry, the DE in me coming out.

Could I suggest you simply edit your post then?

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 15:49

Thanks, new to the board and didn't realize I could edit.
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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Scoring units and denial units   Scoring units and denial units I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 09 2012, 17:44

A very interesting tactic. I wonder if this sort of list would work? 6 venoms and 2 large units of Reavers (could also be 3 units of 6 but I'm not sure that is preferable). You have 4 objective takers and the Reavers for denial. The Warriors can shoot if they're deployed on an objective and the Venoms provide long range fire. 3 Ravagers standard as well for long ranged AT.

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