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 Vehicles, a balanced approach

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Grub
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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 07 2012, 13:32

I wanted to share my thoughts on vehicle selection in a tourney environment. I have seen DE players spam raiders, and I have seen DE players spam Venoms. I believe that in a mechanized list, a balanced approach is needed. It is no secret that while Lances have gotten better in 6th edition, they are still not the sure vehicle killer that we had hoped. Conversely, Venoms still struggle somewhat by not having a variety of targets in the first turn of the game because of the difficulty in forcing troops from disembarking their transports. I would like to present the following thoughts.

1. Choosing a transport should be made mainly by the role of the troops embarked. If the unit is elite or highly specialized in its role, a venom is probably the best option. These units tend to be low in troop count, and a free FF can help survivability on turn 1 (before they start moving for a Jink Save). Larger squads really benefit from the extra HP of the Raider. I know, they are all paper airplanes, and some say that the extra HP doesnt count for much. But when you start taking small arms fire and S4 charge hits, it really makes a difference.

2. Some units really synergize more with one transport over another. Warrior squads are really more effective with Splinter Racks, available only on Raiders. Wyches are now regulated to a haywire delivery, as they go down very quickly to Overwatch. In this role, it is better to keep then cheap. No Hekatrix and no wych weapons, as they are not nearly effective in CC due to the trend in high toughness CC units that are more prevelant now. Wracks seem to be useful in both Raiders and Venoms. In Raiders, they provide a robust CC unit equiped with poison and multiple Liquifiers. In Venoms, they provide a cheap but tough unit that can camp an objective.

3. Here is where the balance comes in. As an alpha strike army, our transports really are vulnerable on Turn 1. There are really only 4 ways to combat this. One, take Vect. Not really an option in games under 2000 pts. Two, rely on Nightfight. This probability is little more than 50%, even if you are using the Warlord Trait to attempt getting Night Attacker. Three, hope that there are tall ruins in your deployment zone that arent positioned in a way that offers unprotected firing lanes, or put your vehicles in poor starting position. Four, use your Venoms as cover for the Raiders. They have a FF to mitigate the loss of Jink. They also do not lose much from only having 2 HP, as on Turn 1 they will be getting hit with a low number of high strength shots.

Another issue to consider is that you want some Lances on Turn 1 to try and pop transports. I'm just not confident that Dark Lance fire on Turn 1 can bring down tough vehicles, especially in cover. Transports are an easier target, until later turns where Haywire and Heat Lances can do the heavy lifting. Unfortunately, they need to be positioned on Turn 1 for a Turn 2 attack.

Anybody have any different thoughts on this subject?
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Mudpuppet
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 07 2012, 13:39

All seems like pretty intelligent comments and thoughts to me. Regarding yoru last point i think this is the exact role of ravagers, to pop transports to give your other units targets and use the heat lances or wych nades to deal with bigger stuff. They are especially good at this now they can move 12" and still fire all 3 weapons at full BS.

Mud
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 07 2012, 14:17

Yeah pretty spot on, I think you might of underestimated wyches though, there still a pretty solid close combat unit- If your worried about overwatch take a Phantasm Grenade Launcher. I have had no problems and I frequently run a wych cult army- currently undefeated in 6th

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jb7090
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 07 2012, 15:14

@Grub wrote:
Yeah pretty spot on, I think you might of underestimated wyches though, there still a pretty solid close combat unit- If your worried about overwatch take a Phantasm Grenade Launcher. I have had no problems and I frequently run a wych cult army- currently undefeated in 6th

Mind posting that army list? Every time Ive tried a wych cult army I get wrecked.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 07 2012, 23:11

No problem, I will Personal Message you with one

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 02:55

My list for da boyz gt this weekend includes 3 venoms (blaster warriors) and 3 raiders (splinter rack warriors, 10 hwg wyches and Incubi w/archon) and 2 ravagers and a void raven so I'm all with you on mixing up the vehicles! You are totally right in that they just have different jobs although i tried the 5 wych haywire venoms and really had just crap luck with the units. They would occasionally kill a tank but not much else. 10 at least gives some cc punch and makes multicharging vehicles more awesome!
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 03:32

I agree with your ideas about mixed roles of the vehicles and like the Venoms as cover strategy for a meta now lacking Raiders w. FF.

I have to admit I disagree with a number of the interior premise calls that the final ideas are chosen by (despite liking the final calls)

I think Wyches are still viable in many ways and against the targets they were always good at.
I think transports should be chosen based on what type of firepower you want to add to the army - not a preconceived notion that 'small elite' means they need to be in a Venom.
I actually dislike splinter racks...

So, points 1 an 2 I frown at. Point 3 and most of your other commentary I rather endorse and like.
I do think people need to get it through their heads that the strength of the army when using mech is in Skimmer spam. Not Venom spam or Raider spam. It's an odd mentality that few seem able to shake.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 10:11

Personally I see raider and venom choice as something that depends on what you are ding with your army. Shoot and Scoot, venoms are the way to go. They are smaller thus easier to hide, with a free FF. Assault/ Large units that are just as effective on foot as mounted, Raiders. Larger capacity, and Free DL. If you want a balanced mixed army then both. I do not think one of these three choices are better then any other, as they all have a weakness and a strength.

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Archon Bruce
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 12:12

As to the wyches, perhaps I just have been playing too many Sisters with flamers. From my experience, when people see a big wych squad they focus it. They tend to ignore a 5 man squad more. I appreciate the difference of opinion. That's how we all learn.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 15:45

People still play Sisters? Wink

I think Chaos is the new flamer gawd option - them or (still) IG.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles, a balanced approach   Vehicles, a balanced approach I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 08 2012, 16:21

Sisters can be pretty nasty with all the flamer options and 6th edition rules. Additionally, our poison is nerfed against them. I have to disclose that my regular list is mainly shooty.
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