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 Wyches... Looks great

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Agahnim
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 05:48

Quote :
What are you doing with your Raiders out in the open and easily shoot-able? You don't deploy them right up front, you go Flat Out in your Turn, then assault next turn. This is basic Dark Eldar stuff and hasn't changed in 6th edition. In fact in many ways it's easier. They've lost hardly any charge range at all as even though the Raider can only move 6", you also disembark 6" and have re-rolls on your charge distance.

I think that by picking the post into pieces you lost the overall meaning. Rather than just assume the person I was responding to was an idiot, I explained all possible actions, no matter how nonsensical they were, so as to show why they were bad ideas. Since you've not been as charitable I will point out that Dark Eldar have never won that way: the Raider Rush is a poor strategy, always has been, and its "successes" depended on opponents not knowing what a Raider was. I hope to clear up your misunderstanding.

In 5th you got a 12" move, 3" disembark, D6" Fleet, and 6" Assault, assuming no pivots allowed. That's deployment + 21 + D6". You're looking at a 2 foot assault range. 4th was vaguely similar. In 6th you get a 6" move, 6" disembark, and your 2d6" assault re-rolling the highest die. I've nothing more to say about Wyches, this is just useful information, as I think it's worth elucidating several misunderstanding about Raiders and Venoms.

Going flat-out forfeits your shooting completely. In 5th this was where games were decided - of your opponent's 9+ vehicles, how many could you destroy Turn 1? If your opponent brought significantly less than that, the same Dark Eldar list could win anyway, such was the army's power at killing infantry in an edition where you'd be foolish not to fully mechanize or bring Bikes/Orks/Assault Marines/Crisis; Dark Lances have no difficulty killing infantry, and our mobility let us take our time. If your opponent brought one of the countless mech armies, getting a 4+ save on an AV10 open-topped vehicle didn't really help since you were bringing it closer in range, they were probably getting a penetrating hit that would be +1 on the damage table, you were giving up any opportunities to shoot with it, and the ensuing explosion meant contents were dying before being shot.

In addition, while going Flat-Out did grant a 4+ cover save (5+ now) getting cover these past 2 editions isn't hard. Cleverly stacking Raiders behind Venoms and building a parking lot is impossible to do effectively if one leaves their deployment zone. NEVER move forward unless there's a very good reason. Flat-Out also makes it that much easier to be wrecked, and AP2/AP1/Open-topped don't help. Additionally, it's a lot easier to control what your opponent has LoS to when you're putting more distance and terrain between them.

---
Finally, there's a lot of this chest-puffing and snorting about how my Dark Eldar would never stoop to such things - frankly this is silly. For starters, Archons who believe in pride, honor, or anything that gets in the way of claiming souls (we can assume whatever is in your list is the sum total of what was available for that raid, no matter what you chose) end up on the end of a bloody dagger or a dirty syringe, and so I'd imagine they don't really have compunctions about "fighting like Imperial Guard" or whatever passive aggressive insult you can muster. A good player, with Guard or Dark Eldar or Space Wolves or whatever, isn't just going to shoot whatever is in front. Trying to say that deploying a certain way, identifying target priority, assaulting threats that need to be stalled and tied up, and shooting choice targets and grabbing objectives when the dust clears... saying that this is wrong somehow? That's just being a bad general, there's no narrative excuse.

A lot about Raiders, not much about Wyches, but can you discuss one without the other?
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 06:50

I don't think wyches have changed that much. Overwatch, is not a big deal, cover/fleet solves that just fine, unless you are charging burna boys. Their problem has always been the raider, when raiders exploded last edition your wyches would be sitting ducks/dead the same way they are this edition. In 5th the extra charge range didn't matter much as like Agahnim said no sensible opponent would let you get that first turn charge. So not much has changed. Your raiders still need to get to the enemy intact for wyches to be effective and there in lies the problem. So you either run enough vehicles to force enough saturation so that your wyches can get to their target intact, or your reserve them and hope that you take out enough AT on your first turn to give them a chance of arriving at their intended target.

What I find ironic about all this "moaning" about wyches is that they had the same problems in 5th, the only difference was that FNP was far better at preventing explosion/small arms fire casualties. This and the increased range of rapid fire weapons on the move.

As for the succubus she is more cost effective than the same points cost spent on wyches, because of the way the explosion mechanic works. So if you are running wyches, and you have a free HQ slot there are very few reasons not to take a succubus.

@Agahnim wrote:

In addition, while going Flat-Out did grant a 4+ cover save (5+ now)

It still grants a 4+ cover save, 2-3+ cover during night fight.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 09:47

@Agahnim wrote:
Quote :
What are you doing with your Raiders out in the open and easily shoot-able? You don't deploy them right up front, you go Flat Out in your Turn, then assault next turn. This is basic Dark Eldar stuff and hasn't changed in 6th edition. In fact in many ways it's easier. They've lost hardly any charge range at all as even though the Raider can only move 6", you also disembark 6" and have re-rolls on your charge distance.

I think that by picking the post into pieces you lost the overall meaning. Rather than just assume the person I was responding to was an idiot, I explained all possible actions, no matter how nonsensical they were, so as to show why they were bad ideas. Since you've not been as charitable I will point out that Dark Eldar have never won that way: the Raider Rush is a poor strategy, always has been, and its "successes" depended on opponents not knowing what a Raider was. I hope to clear up your misunderstanding.
Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating Raider rush, I am merely stating that Raiders are still a valid method of transporting Wyches when used correctly, and that Wyches are still a strong close combat unit which will take a unit out of the firefight and probably beat it in combat or at the very least tie it up for a long time with minimal losses. Yes, Wyches are slightly weaker now due to Overwatch and S4 explosions on open-topped vehicles, but you can play around this and still use them well.

In 5th you got a 12" move, 3" disembark, D6" Fleet, and 6" Assault, assuming no pivots allowed. That's deployment + 21 + D6". You're looking at a 2 foot assault range. 4th was vaguely similar. In 6th you get a 6" move, 6" disembark, and your 2d6" assault re-rolling the highest die. I've nothing more to say about Wyches, this is just useful information, as I think it's worth elucidating several misunderstanding about Raiders and Venoms.
I would like to point out that (due to Fleet letting you re-roll charge dice of your choice) this doesn't actually amount to a whole lot of difference. Most of the difference here is down to the D6" fleet, which, with the right positioning, becomes negligible. Yes there is a difference, but not enough of a difference to make it terrible.
Going flat-out forfeits your shooting completely. In 5th this was where games were decided - of your opponent's 9+ vehicles, how many could you destroy Turn 1? If your opponent brought significantly less than that, the same Dark Eldar list could win anyway, such was the army's power at killing infantry in an edition where you'd be foolish not to fully mechanize or bring Bikes/Orks/Assault Marines/Crisis; Dark Lances have no difficulty killing infantry, and our mobility let us take our time. If your opponent brought one of the countless mech armies, getting a 4+ save on an AV10 open-topped vehicle didn't really help since you were bringing it closer in range, they were probably getting a penetrating hit that would be +1 on the damage table, you were giving up any opportunities to shoot with it, and the ensuing explosion meant contents were dying before being shot.

In addition, while going Flat-Out did grant a 4+ cover save (5+ now) getting cover these past 2 editions isn't hard. Cleverly stacking Raiders behind Venoms and building a parking lot is impossible to do effectively if one leaves their deployment zone. NEVER move forward unless there's a very good reason. Flat-Out also makes it that much easier to be wrecked, and AP2/AP1/Open-topped don't help. Additionally, it's a lot easier to control what your opponent has LoS to when you're putting more distance and terrain between them.

I would also like to say that I wasn't saying Flat-out was the way in which they should be kept alive. I never trust purely to a 4+ cover save, but the Flat-out move will get you into position and usually out of LoS, preparing you for when you want to fly out and attack. I'm not saying: 'Fly up turn 1, get out and assault turn 2' because that would get you, at best, a dead enemy unit and your Wyches and Raider dead in return. My point, however, is that as long as you pick your circumstances to attack (which has always been the case with Dark Eldar and indeed many armies) the Wyches in a Raider will still perform their task well.

---
Finally, there's a lot of this chest-puffing and snorting about how my Dark Eldar would never stoop to such things - frankly this is silly. For starters, Archons who believe in pride, honor, or anything that gets in the way of claiming souls (we can assume whatever is in your list is the sum total of what was available for that raid, no matter what you chose) end up on the end of a bloody dagger or a dirty syringe, and so I'd imagine they don't really have compunctions about "fighting like Imperial Guard" or whatever passive aggressive insult you can muster. A good player, with Guard or Dark Eldar or Space Wolves or whatever, isn't just going to shoot whatever is in front. Trying to say that deploying a certain way, identifying target priority, assaulting threats that need to be stalled and tied up, and shooting choice targets and grabbing objectives when the dust clears... saying that this is wrong somehow? That's just being a bad general, there's no narrative excuse.

You have completely misunderstood me here, and I apologise for not making it clear. For one, at no point did I say anything about 'stooping' with an army, I merely stated that as any Dark Eldar player knows, you don't just attack the closest thing and hope for the best, so such 'chaff' units as you suggested really aren't much of a problem. You accuse me of advocating pride and honour and deriding target priority etc., but at no point did I suggest any of that, so I don't know where you're getting it from. My remark about the Imperial Guard fighting differently to us was a valid one, and wasn't me suggesting that their style is inferior to ours, merely that it doesn't work for us. My entire point was that target priority etc. is important for Wyches and the like to work, and that unlike armies with more numbers and disposable units to hand (such as my example, Imperial Guard, who can very much adopt a strategy of: 'Shoot down the closest, more immediate threats'), they need to be careful with deployment, movement, and assault and tie up threats when needed. Basically the last part of that post is all of the things which I agree with and don't know why you're saying I'm against them.
A lot about Raiders, not much about Wyches, but can you discuss one without the other?

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 10:35

[quote ="Agahnim"]
Quote :
In 5th you got a 12" move, 3" disembark, D6" Fleet, and 6" Assault, assuming no pivots allowed. That's deployment + 21 + D6". You're looking at a 2 foot assault range. 4th was vaguely similar. In 6th you get a 6" move, 6" disembark, and your 2d6" assault re-rolling the highest die.

Rerolling one or more of your dice actually

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 12:34

wyches are more powerful, but more made of glass.

In my last apocalypse I completely destroyed 9 killa kanz and 2 ork dreads in 1 assault with my 3 units of wyches. It was so overkill that I managed to explode 4 or 5 kanz, killing lots of wyches. Yes, they are weaker, but they do their work faster. I didn't expect them to survive either...

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wittykid
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 01 2012, 03:39

Eldur just summed up wyches unbelievably well and better than all of us writing big long blurbs of information about them.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 01 2012, 13:49

@Eldur wrote:
wyches are more powerful, but more made of glass.

In my last apocalypse I completely destroyed 9 killa kanz and 2 ork dreads in 1 assault with my 3 units of wyches. It was so overkill that I managed to explode 4 or 5 kanz, killing lots of wyches. Yes, they are weaker, but they do their work faster. I didn't expect them to survive either...

The last time I played 5th edition 4 wyches and a Succubus (Agatha) killed Abbadon the Despoiler and 4 Chaos Terminators. Also a Chaos Defiler and a Daemon Prince, in the same game.

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Kthraxis
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 23 2012, 14:07

I won't waste time talking about builds because they have been covered in the most part.

I want to talk about getting an effective assault unit into assault without overwatch ruining your day because I love wyches and don't want to see you good people ebaying perfectly usable minis.

Overwatch.... overwatch, overwatch, overwatch! Our newest foe but not one without exploit.

First off, we're fast. There's no denying that. So Using that speed to wyches advantage is key.
Now I don't just mean slamming up into the enemies face ASAP. I'm talking finesse.

Example (yes this is situation but I feel this example gets the idea across);

Problem;
Enemy in cover hammering rounds down a fire lane... lets say bolters and heavy wepon x (all AP 5 or less and lets consider all hits wound! - jammer bugger!)
If you charge that head on, expect losses.
I would rather use an extra turn to negate their advantage.

Solution;
Start out of range, use your speed to flank the swines and get close... use their own cover/4+jink/block LoS entirely if possible to make you a hard target.
Next turn move up and disembark into their cover... get right in there with them/use your raider as cover if none is available.
The Key at this point is to ensure that you are within 8". As difficult terrain is a random factor it is in your interest to get your raider into 9"range if the situation is pivotal.
Then assault.
Remember that you are rolling through difficult terrain but fleet means you can re-roll all three dice if needed and ideally you want to be as close as possible.
The resultant overwatch may put in 2 hits on average but if they get lucky it can be devastating... but now you are in a position that grants you a cover save.
4+ if your lucky, 5+ in area.
Combine that with the fact that you are within 8" to gain Stealth USR from the PGL that you obviously chose (good choice by the way Wink) and youare looking at a 3 to 4+ coversave.
In this situation you are only loosing 1 wyche on average.

Please discuss.

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 00:29

Ofcourse there is always the alternative of just sending in a small unit first to draw overwatch then sending in the real assault unit. I very seldonm send in an 7-8 wych unit to asault something on it's own. Tag team it with a 5 wych unit or 5 warriors, send in the small unit, draw fire and then plough the killer unit in afterwards.

Usually works just danady. It's why I always take 5 wych units with haywires. If there ar tanks to hunt down let them do it, if not then the are sacrificial units for overwatch, although usually it's to protect my beast unit.

Anyway I look at it wyches always have a place in my lists.
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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 01:56

As in above, I usually come in with a sacrifice unit first. And usually that's my (non-Warlord), previously attached Haem. Disembarkation from the opposite side from the Wyches, Liquifiring the side that won't reduce Wych charge range, leaving the token behind. If he makes it in, wonderful! If not, overwatch is still already discharged and the Wyches get in to wreak havoc safe and sound. I've found that this tactic also allows the Raider (Dissie version) to thin the ranks pre-assault even more, provided that placement of all models means that the Dissie lands on the side that the Wyches aren't assaulting...provided, of course, that this doesn't mean that combat ends on my turn. If it will mean that, then I get to put those Dissie rounds on a unit which may or may not be a threat if I do, by dice 'luck' happen to end combat on my turn.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 11:30

I think it's actually a decent use for Mandrakes. Declare a charge with 5 of them from cover, soak up the Overwatch with Stealth then charge with the other unit.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 11:45

Why are you so worried of overwatch?

I think if you declare a charge to a unit, capable of doing severe damage to Wyches with overwatch - you are charging wrong unit or at the wrong time (like Shoota Blob or guardsmen platoon). Shoot them some more.

Its not enough dirty. Dirty and right is "whatever happens i win". IF you need super clever positioning tactics to pull a fight - you have picked a wrong fight. Too much outcomes. Outcame should be only one - that is 'win'. You werent given super mobility and hammer style ranged AI to pick even fights.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 24 2012, 15:45

@Azdrubael wrote:
Why are you so worried of overwatch?

I think if you declare a charge to a unit, capable of doing severe damage to Wyches with overwatch - you are charging wrong unit or at the wrong time (like Shoota Blob or guardsmen platoon). Shoot them some more.

Its not enough dirty. Dirty and right is "whatever happens i win". IF you need super clever positioning tactics to pull a fight - you have picked a wrong fight. Too much outcomes. Outcame should be only one - that is 'win'. You werent given super mobility and hammer style ranged AI to pick even fights.

I'm not particularly worried about overwatch, but it makes perfect sense to put a small sacrificial unit in first to draw it, before putting in the unit that will do the damage. It's not always possible to shoot it some more.

Super mobility is a myth, on a 4' x 6' table.
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Siegfried VII
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 25 2012, 01:06

Hi guys. I'm a noob to 40k so I cannot contribute in the conversation much but a question came to my mind as I read all the arguments about wyches.

We have to take 2 troop choices mandatory right?

So we either take wyches or kabalite warriors (assuming we do not use a haemonculus to make wracks troop choice).

So the question is: Are Kabalite Warriors that much better than Wyches? I have no experience to make my own conclusion, but if wyches are equal to or better than kabalite warriors why not take two units of them?

Cheers, Sieg.

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ravengoescaw
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 25 2012, 04:12

Sieg, all depends on one thing, Do you want a ranged army, an assault army or a mix? Warriors are better at range, wyches at assault, though even if you want a pure assault army, then I would still recommend taeing a mix of wracks and wyches, for a hammer and anvil.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 25 2012, 08:36

Quote :
So the question is: Are Kabalite Warriors that much better than Wyches?

I dont think they are better at all. Warriors saving grace in 5th was their AV ability and Blaster, but now wyches clearly better in AV regard.

WHen considering AI ability their power usually comes from Venom, and its flying and firing at the range Kabalites warriors cant contribute, just as Wyches. So ranged army with Kabalites will not be that much better then ranged army with Wyches, but will have slightly worse AV and worse assault ability.

Im not a fan of Raider Warrior squads, although people trying to see some point in taking them.
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ravengoescaw
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 25 2012, 08:47

Warriors at longer ranges have better AV, Wyches you have to get close. In my opinion, the only difference between warriors and wyches as to which is better is equal to how you want to play. Close a possible assault see the white of their eyes army, wyches are better. Shoot and scoot Warriors.

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Siegfried VII
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 25 2012, 09:21

Ok I think I understand now. Many thanks for the replies guys. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 25 2012, 14:05

A balanced approach is probably what your looking for.

Some small squads of wyches with haywaire grenades in venoms and some 10 man warrior squads for objective holding has been working for me recently. As with everything else it'll depend on your playstyle and your local area meta.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches... Looks great   Wyches... Looks great - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 26 2012, 16:40

DE were never meant to camp objectives all game long. We are very fragile with low T and t-shirt saves. We do have increased mobility however to rush to objectives on T5 and take them or contest them. Is it risky? Yes absolutely but it is better then the alternative of trying to hold them all game long. This is an open invitation to the enemy to be pie plated or flamed to death.

Kind of OT so I will stop there.
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