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 Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters

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Mudpuppet
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 18:44

Thor why do you say haywire blasters are meh now compared to before? Surely with hull points they are better?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 20:26

They would be better if we could spam them. You can't get enough on the field to take true advantage of their capability.

Basically they took away the Haywire Blasters' ability to prevent a vehicle from shooting or moving, and added in a vague hope to destroy it if you manage to strip Hull Points.

So it goes from an assured lockdown tool to a ...support killing tool.
Meanwhile Lances got better.

I don't see the win, really - what do you see it as?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 21:21

Couldn't Haywire blasters have a different purpose now, as a 'clean up' sort of weapon? I'm sure theres times when a vehicle only has one or two hull points left that im sure they come in handy? I could be wrong though haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 21:25

I suppose that's a decent use for them.

My counter would be - you could just use a lance, and then when you have vehicles with multiple hull points left it's still useful, unlike the mostly useless haywire blaster.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 21:29

I agree with Thor, I have been unimpressed the two times I have run haywire blasters. They need numbers to be effective, and it's really hard to field them in numbers.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 21:40

I did use to love them in a totally consensual way - but the new rules boned them hard.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 21:42

Quote :
Basically they took away the Haywire Blasters' ability to prevent a vehicle from shooting or moving, and added in a vague hope to destroy it if you manage to strip Hull Points.

It might just be my dice but what you say about haywire blasters is what I experience with dark glances.

That "vague" hope is not so vague as you make it sound like. Consider this, dark light will pen AV12 on a 5+, that's 16.7% worse than the frequency of a haywire doing a pen. Dark light will glance AV12 50% of the time, whereas the haywire will do it 83% of the time.

I really like the haywires ability to almost always do something with a hit. I never really felt comfortable taking on mech, even with 20+ dark lances, there has usually been at least one entire turn in each game where they haven't even scratched the paintjob of an enemy vehicle.

Multiple units with haywire (2-3 scourge units + 3 talos and wyches for troops) have proven much more succesful, for me.

Quote :
Meanwhile Lances got better.

They most certainly did not. They kill vehicles on a 5+ exactly like they did in 5th.

@psychological: if you have a couple of haywire units, either scourges or talos, they will be a very handy "clean up" tool. If you have more they will (in my experience) more reliably kill key mech targets. Unlike dark light, which often bounce completely even with 20+ shots.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 22:42

@Septimus wrote:
That "vague" hope is not so vague as you make it sound like. Consider this, dark light will pen AV12 on a 5+, that's 16.7% worse than the frequency of a haywire doing a pen. Dark light will glance AV12 50% of the time, whereas the haywire will do it 83% of the time.
I'm just going to toss out that I think you're really messing up your maths here. Let me do my breakdown - and then if you think I'm wrong you can correct me and explain how you got your numbers.

Both will hit just as much. I will happily choose not to do the maths for that as well - just take into account that all of these numbers represent the percentages *after* a successful hit.

Haywire Blaster vs. AV 10-14

No result - 16.6%
Glance - 66.66% (also, an additional 16.66% unconnected chance versus AV 10)
Pen - 16.6%

Dark Lance vs. AV 10

No result - 16.6%
Glance - 16.66%
Pen - 66.66%

Dark Lance vs. AV 11

No result - 33.3%
Glance - 16.66%
Pen - 50%

Dark Lance vs. AV 12+

No result - 50%
Glance - 16.66%
Pen - 33.3%

=========================================

So, looking at that, we see that, at all times and versus all armor types, the Dark Lance is better at giving us a pen result.
It is immensely better vs. AV 10 armor.
It is basically as good vs. AV 11, and has a dramatic superiority in generating a pen.
It is weakest vs. AV 12+ insomuch as it is more likely to do nothing - but it is still massively more likely to do a penetrating hit.

Also, remember that all its damage results are +1, so if it does pen it has a base 33.3% chance to *destroy* the vehicle compared to the Haywire Blaster's 16.6%

Do you agree with those numbers?

@Septimus wrote:
I really like the haywires ability to almost always do something with a hit.
I will point out that most glances "do nothing" A glance is really the same as a miss unless it's the last hull point.
Therefore, as shown above, a Lance is always more likely to do "something" unless you think removing a hull point and otherwise leaving a vehicle fully operational counts as doing something.
I do not - which may be why our views differ.

@Septimus wrote:
Multiple units with haywire (2-3 scourge units + 3 talos and wyches for troops) have proven much more succesful, for me.
I do not disagree that Haywire *grenades* are good.
But The Talos cannot bring the Haywire blaster into useful shooting range for at least a turn, maybe 2 - it is a terrible unit to bank your shooting hopes on.
The Scourges are better, but that is about it for a good delivery system of haywire blasters, and if you like that why not just take heat lances instead?

@Septimus wrote:
They most certainly did not. They kill vehicles on a 5+ exactly like they did in 5th.
They also gained a +1 modifier to the damage table (if you don't think that's huge I submit you didn't play much in 5th) making them far more likely to blow up a vehicle then to just stun or shake it.
They also gained the ability to kill via glancing if you do only inflict glances.
That does make them better. They gained and yet lost nothing.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 25 2012, 15:23

Thor's math is dead on, of course. And mostly agree with his points.

I love using my haywire blaster, but it is mostly a cleanup, or softening something for a 5 man haywire wych assault. It's not because it is better than a Dark Light weapon, but as the math shows, it is more consistent. If you need to take that last hull point off, haywire blaster should do it, 5 out of 6 times.

If we could put 4 of them into a trueborn squad, it might be viable, but right now I only really use them on my Talos, because I find that with a 24" range and a 6" movement, he usually is in range of a vehicle first turn. It's not the best loadout, but it's nice to have that consistent ability to strip a single hull point.

As far as dealing with a vehicle, heat lances and dark light are still far superior, just not as consistent. One thing that I was overlooking, and I assume many are, is that once you immobilize a vehicle, it's probably going to die quickly, because subsequent immobilize results inflict an additional hull point, not remove a weapon. So if you get 2 darklight hits, and 2 immobilize results, that basically wrecks most vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 07:00

Quote :
Do you agree with those numbers?

Yes, the numbers are almost "correct" but you totally disregard the damage result table, and as long as you only compare one dark lance vs. one haywire blaster, that skews everything. I look at the in-game effect of the entire army not only 1 weapon compared to another.

First, you forget that the haywire has the ability to strip 2 hull points in one shot vs. AV10 (the haywire effect comes after the pen-roll).

Second, you disregard that a TL BS3 haywire hits more often than a normal BS4 shot. Furthermore, TL does give you nearly 30% chance of hitting a flyer compared to a dark lance, which only has a 16.7% chance of generating a hit.

Third, a pen in no way guarantees anything as it will often just strip a hull point and have an in-game meaningless side result. A dark lance only has app. 7.5% chance of generating an explode result vs. AV12 (I haywire would be app. 4%) when you include the to hit factor, vs. AV11 it would be 11% (a haywire would be app. 4%). Not impressed.

Fourth, you mention that a Talos can only start shooting from turn 2 but with an effective range of 30" I haven't had any trouble shooting from turn 1.

Quote :
Also, remember that all its damage results are +1, so if it does pen it has a base 33.3% chance to *destroy* the vehicle

As I said, the +1 is meaningless as the dark lance has exactly the same chance of "killing" a vehicle as it did in 5th as the explode result moved one up on the tabel.

The haywire was only really good for stun-locking in 5th and vs. necrons and grey knights that was nearly useless. Doing damage 83% of the time with a hit is a very nice buff in 6th.

Quote :
I will point out that most glances "do nothing" A glance is really the same as a miss unless it's the last hull point.
Therefore, as shown above, a Lance is always more likely to do "something" unless you think removing a hull point and otherwise leaving a vehicle fully operational counts as doing something.
I do not - which may be why our views differ.

I consider killing squad members doing something, or wounding a monstrous creature so the next thing that tries to kill it has an even higher chance of doing it ... it's the same with hull points, every time you strip a hull point you make it easier for the next thing hitting it to "kill" it.

Quote :
The Scourges are better, but that is about it for a good delivery system of haywire blasters, and if you like that why not just take heat lances instead?

A heat lance has to be within 9" to be effective and you are comparing that to a haywire blaster, that is effective within 24"... seriously?

Quote :
They also gained a +1 modifier to the damage table (if you don't think that's huge I submit you didn't play much in 5th) making them far more likely to blow up a vehicle then to just stun or shake it.
They also gained the ability to kill via glancing if you do only inflict glances.
That does make them better. They gained and yet lost nothing.

I already covered why the +1 on the damage tabel is not in any way huge, it's not making a dark lance any better than it was in 5th. I cannot see how you can think a 33% chance of exploding a vehicle in 6th is "far more llikely to blow up a vehicle" than the exact same 33% of destroying or exploding a vehicle in 5th was.

Shake and stun are also the first 3 numbers on the damage tabel in 6th, in 5th it was only shake and stun on a 1 and 2.

Last factor, a dark lance costs more points than a haywire blaster.

Do I still take dark lances? Of course, but after adding in more haywire weapons it finally doesn't feel like pure luck if I make a dent when I'm fighting my way through 10+ AV12-14 vehicles.


Please refrain from using the words troll or trolling as they are never good for discussion. Thanks. -Mush

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 07:16

Personally I would never take any dark lances or haywire blasters, or blasters or heat lances, or dissies and rely on ramming to get the job done before seperating my army into very small seperate groups and walking towards the enemy. That seems like a viable tactic, 60% of the time it works every time.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 07:25

The hell. How can ramming work if it was nerfed into oblivion by reducing it to normal move only?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 07:31

"Fire the Derp cannon"
- I was trolling (sorry Mush, can't put the words in any other way!), the conversation is going off topic so it had to be broken up. Clearly the above is not a good way to play a game unless you are specifically playing to embaress yourself Razz

Also, perhaps this thread could do with a poll? Might be an effective way to get peoples general feelings on the subject of which is better?

Please use the edit button in future. Thanks. -Mush

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 07:39

@Septimus wrote:
First, you forget that the haywire has the ability to strip 2 hull points in one shot vs. AV10 (the haywire effect comes after the pen-roll).
Actually, I did note that - but it is rather unlikely to happen too.

@Septimus wrote:
Second, you disregard that a TL BS3 haywire hits more often than a normal BS4 shot. Furthermore, TL does give you nearly 30% chance of hitting a flyer compared to a dark lance, which only has a 16.7% chance of generating a hit.
Both good points, but this means you're running a Talos and using it to shoot (at flyers...which it can't assault) which feels a waste of the Talos.
But, yes - BS4 is a 67% chance to hit and TL BS 3 is 75% so that is certainly an advantage presuming you're using the Talos as your shooting platform.

@Septimus wrote:
Third, a pen in no way guarantees anything as it will often just strip a hull point and have an in-game meaningless side result.
If that is 'nothing' then it is certainly more than the 'assured someting' of the haywire blaster though - which is less than a pen no matter what.

@Septimus wrote:
A dark lance only has app. 7.5% chance of generating an explode result vs. AV12 (I haywire would be app. 4%) when you include the to hit factor, vs. AV11 it would be 11% (a haywire would be app. 4%). Not impressed.
A Haywire is more like 1.85% It doesn't explode anything on a roll of 5 on the damage chart - it's AP 4.
I'll again note that dealing a hull point + a result is still better than just dealing a hull point, and also having about five times as much chance to flat out destroy something is hardly anything to sneeze at.

@Septimus wrote:
Fourth, you mention that a Talos can only start shooting from turn 2 but with an effective range of 30" I haven't had any trouble shooting from turn 1.
Considering most vehicle weaponry has a range of at least 36" I will admit that I think that means your opponents set up in kind of a dumb way. But, regardless, you certainly cannot shoot anywhere on the board, whereas a Lance on a Raider assuredly could.

@Septimus wrote:
The haywire was only really good for stun-locking in 5th and vs. necrons and grey knights that was nearly useless. Doing damage 83% of the time with a hit is a very nice buff in 6th.
I'd agree - if the damage could still stun lock.

@Septimus wrote:
I consider killing squad members doing something, or wounding a monstrous creature so the next thing that tries to kill it has an even higher chance of doing it ... it's the same with hull points, every time you strip a hull point you make it easier for the next thing hitting it to "kill" it.
Yeah, but "Dark Glances" can do that just as well and, indeed, better with a dramatic chance improvement to need less of them on the board to seal the deal.

@Septimus wrote:
A heat lance has to be within 9" to be effective and you are comparing that to a haywire blaster, that is effective within 24"... seriously?
Yes.

@Septimus wrote:
I cannot see how you can think a 33% chance of exploding a vehicle in 6th is "far more llikely to blow up a vehicle" than the exact same 33% of destroying or exploding a vehicle in 5th was.
Because of Hull Points.

@Septimus wrote:
Last factor, a dark lance costs more points than a haywire blaster.
Eh, only in an absolute sense - they only have one direct comparison unit, the Scourge.

The cheapest way to get a lance on the board would be 3 Wracks in a Raider with a Lance - 90 points.
The cheapest way to get a Haywire Blaster is a Talos w. TL Haywire and nothing else - 105 points.
The Scourge crowd costs 120 at the least.
To field them, pricewise, it is highly competitive and hardly a clear win for either. (unless you insist on fielding Lances with Scourges, in which case, yes, the Haywire Blaster is cheaper I happily concede)
I can also get Lances in Troop slots - which is a pretty dramatic advantage for them in a general cost sense since you're obligated to buy Troop slots.

@Septimus wrote:
Do I still take dark lances? Of course, but after adding in more haywire weapons it finally doesn't feel like pure luck if I make a dent when I'm fighting my way through 10+ AV12-14 vehicles.
I don't field bad doing it with lances either, though I am often accused of having good luck with my lances.
How many lances do you field with your Haywire tech - and where are you buying your haywires (Talos/Scourges/both)?

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PostSubject: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 09:35

Quote :
I don't field bad doing it with lances either, though I am often accused of having good luck with my lances.
How many lances do you field with your Haywire tech - and where are you buying your haywires (Talos/Scourges/both)?

I think this is the reason for our differing viewpoints.

My dice luck with lances is rather lacking. I can hit, I can pen, but it very rarely does any lasting damage.

Whereas the haywires live up to "death by a thousand cuts" and nearly always inflict some kind of damage with each hit.

Quote :
How many lances do you field with your Haywire tech - and where are you buying your haywires (Talos/Scourges/both)?

Depends on the list but I've had a surprising success rate with wych troops w. haywire grenades, 9 reavers w. 3 heat lances, 2x 5 scourges w. 2 haywires and 3 taloi w. TL haywires.

Lance shots come from trueborn, troop(s) if any warriors are included, and sometimes raiders though I prefer them with disintegrators as dark lances have been nothing but a huge disappointment both in 5th and 6th (switched to disintegrators at the end of 5th).

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 12:03

I have split discussion into two separate topics, one concerning Venoms and Raiders, the other concerning Haywireblasters and Dark Lances. Please keep the discussion relevant. Thanks. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 12:51

Can someone explain the new haywire rule?
The BRB states that you roll for the haywire effect instead of the armour pen. I know in our codex it says to resolve normally and then do the haywire effect, but I have not been doing that-I hae followed the BRB.

Okay, I got that
1) we are special Smile
2) FAQ>Codex > rule book

But, I could swear that I read somewhere that the new rulebook trumps old codex. Did I hallucinate that?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 05:42

^Codex trumps rule book.

As for Haywire Blasters discussion there is a point that hasn't be raised yet, and thats mixing AT weapons with AI weapons in the same unit. you're not getting the maximum output when mixing weapons options.

Just another angle...

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 08:02

Quote :
you're not getting the maximum output when mixing weapons options.

Unless its blaster or melta, which is effective always.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 09:33

Good point 1++, maybe less for a blaster in a warrior squad but particularly say a scourge unit with 2 Haywire blasters. Spreading fire can always be irritating!

I do like Haywires, they are very effective at stripping hull points off however I personally have found that when the Dark Glance does occaisionnally penetrate (I don't care about math hammer because that is not how probabilty works- if you roll a dice 6 times you will not get 1,2,3,4,5,6) it willl, with the new +1 modifier cause some serious damage to the vehicle. If you could put haywires on raiders then this would be a different arguement but because of these points, the Dark Glance wins in my book simply because we can saturate our lists with them. If you could do the same with haywire blasters, this may be slightly different.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 10:52

@1++ wrote:
^Codex trumps rule book.

As for Haywire Blasters discussion there is a point that hasn't be raised yet, and thats mixing AT weapons with AI weapons in the same unit. you're not getting the maximum output when mixing weapons options.

Just another angle...
Codex does not trump rulebook. Specific overrules general. Usually a Codex is more specific, but it's iffy with edition changes.

All weapons got errata'd in 6th on page 414-416 in the rulebook. The Haywire Blaster does not have a (*) in its profile, so it does not use any additional rules from our codex. So it uses the Haywire rule from the rulebook. Which sadly means no additional AP roll on STR4. Fortunately, Forgeworld's Reaper is unaffected, as it uses its own Haywire rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 11:09

@Mandor wrote:
@1++ wrote:
^Codex trumps rule book.

As for Haywire Blasters discussion there is a point that hasn't be raised yet, and thats mixing AT weapons with AI weapons in the same unit. you're not getting the maximum output when mixing weapons options.

Just another angle...
Codex does not trump rulebook. Specific overrules general.

No commenting on this specific case but actually codex does trump rulebook.

Pg 7

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You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
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Nappen
Kabalite Warrior
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Join date : 2012-09-22

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 13:14



Right, I forgot: White Dwarf>faq>codex>rulebook. Fairly well codified.

I have been looking and I cannot find where I saw something that put the new special rules overrulling the codex's.

As for the * in the weapons pages of the rule book. The rulebook only states that there is further information in the codex, but does not say specifically that there is not, so don't think that makes the case.

Perhaps our DE haywire weapons are more deadly than others so we get the extra rule. Until an FAQ, I guess I will have to change my playing of this. Of course, I only take two with my five scourges, which may change based on this thread, anyway Smile
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 13:16

The rulebook has the latest rules for the Haywire Blaster. So I'm afraid you'll have to use those.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 14:11

That is the question. Does the new rules trump our codex or does our codex trump the new rules. The BRB itself seems to be conflicted on the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters   Dark Lances vs Haywireblasters I_icon_minitime

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