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 Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?

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Count Adhemar
Agahnim
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MordredBloodyhand
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PostSubject: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 11:23

I have been running VB and Husk Blade plus soultrap on my archon and not once have I killed an IC or MC to use the soul trap so its feeling like a waste. Is the agonsier worth thinking about? Is it AP3? Or would a Djinn blade be the better choice.

At the moment i give him Venom Blade, Huskblade, PGL, Combat Drugs, Soul trap and Shadow field. I run him with a unit of incubi and a haemy. Now i am thinking about Agoniser, PGL, Combat drugs and a Shadow Field......any suggestions?
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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 12:03

My take on the agonizer is that it is "blunt" so is lumped in with the power mauls and would therefore be AP 4. I guess you could make a case for it being more like a bladed weapon or a spear which would make it AP2 or 3.

I don't like the Djinn blade-roll doubles and the archon is a dead puppy.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 12:24

The agoniser would be an unusual power weapon and thus AP3. This is due to it always wounding on a 4+.

Remember with the djinn blade you can run a blaster or 2 blast pistols and still get the bonus attack for 2 weapons as well as the fact your SF can save you when you roll a double.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 12:32

Venom blade and Blast Pistol. Give the Haemy a Dark Portal and you'll be able to blow up a transport and charge in with the same unit. No need for Blaster since you won't charge from more than 12" Wink

P.D: don't go without PGL and Shadow field!!!

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 12:55

Your right, it auto hits, don't know why I read that as auto wound Embarassed

Never mind, unusual power weapon-next paragraph over...Embarassed again
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Agahnim
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 22:43

The primary utility of an Archon is challenging things and sniping special weapons. With careful positioning, you can shoot and allocate darklight wounds to plasma/melta/flamer/big shoota in a squad and then charge, challenge the Sergeant/attached IC and use your shadowfield to survive long enough to finish them off. This forces your opponent to play cautiously with their ICs or souped up Chaos Aspiring Champion.

Let's also not forget: Archons are BS 7. 2+ to hit, and then a 5+ re-try. That's... borderline auto-hit. If you fail that's a Kodak moment.

It depends on what an unusual power weapon is. The term is used once in the 6th edition BRB and never clarified or used elsewhere. I know there's a topic and people couldn't debate it civilly, so I'm putting 2 answers.

If it's any weapon that isn't strictly a Power Weapon, for all intents and purposes... that means except for Dark Eldar, IG Officers, and Hyperphase swords, no non-Marines get ordinary Power Weapons, because even "a power weapon that gives +1 Strength" is unusual. In which case, the best Archon is a Haemonculus, because S3 on a Power Weapon isn't worth it.

Many obviously unusual power weapons were FAQ'd in one or both of the FAQs released. Why would they skip some and not others, unless the "skipped" ones weren't unusual at all. And both the Agoniser and Djin Blade do not mandate being a sword.

Page 56 says "Though agonisers come in a variety of forms, the most common are whips or barbed flails." and that a "A Djin Blade is a power weapon." without any mention of its shape. So if you accept the version that these are not unusual, the Archon becomes a solid option, and your opponent can't hide characters in units without consequence when an Archon's on the field.

I'm assuming the latter not because I'm disregarding the former, but because it renders discussion moot - either you insist on a handicap or you're not taking an Archon.

Agonisers gain no benefit from extra strength. So it's either a Whip, Axe, or Sword. Do you NEED to assault terminators or TDA armor characters? That's an opportunity to use your Blast Pistol. An Agoniser + Pistol is 6 attacks on the charge. Assume you hit on 3s, that's 2 wounds on the character you challenge.

A Djin Blade does benefit from extra strength. Let's assume the Archon doesn't face bonk, and look at the Djin Maul and Djin Lance. Both have 8 attacks, and hit 5.33 times. Against T4 3+ The Maul wounds 3.55 times, and 1.12 wounds are unsaved, which is slightly worse than the Sword. The Djin Lance is the winner with 2.67 unsaved wounds, beating the equally priced Agoniser against Marines, and doing slightly worse than the Maul vs 4+ Armor or against GEQ characters without invulns like a Commissar.

So now that you see where I'm getting this, I think the best options are:

Haemonculus - if you think they accidentally missed the Djin Blade and Agoniser despite mentioning many other S (as user) AP3 weapons with effects. The Archon just isn't worth losing Wracks or cool special character(s).

Archon, Djin Lance, 2 Blast Pistols, *something*field. - Shadowfield is to make sure you get there, Clone Field is cheaper but risky. 2 Blast Pistols and a Challenge mean that the second round of combat they start with their 3 best models dead, you clean up and move on.
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MordredBloodyhand
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26 2012, 22:58

Djinn blades and agoniser are unusual power weapons. Thats how we see it anyway they fot the description perfectly but this has got me thinking about a plain old Power maul for my Archon.....sure against MEQ the ap4 isnt good but against others its golden!...Hmmmmm food for thought thanks Agahnim some good thought provoking posts from you!
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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 13:15

Why would a Djinn blade not be a sword, being a "blade of polished crystal?"
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 14:48

Nappen wrote:
Why would a Djinn blade not be a sword, being a "blade of polished crystal?"

The shape of the weapon is utterly irrelevant as it falls under the "unusual power weapon" heading and therefore gains no benefit (or penalty) for the type of weapon that is modelled.

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 15:12

So , it is "unusual" because of it's "unique characteristic" regardless of the weapon type.

I don't know why I cannot keep that unusual weapon paragraph in my head.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 27 2012, 16:12

Yes. If it has "unique close combat rules" then it is AP3.

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Agahnim
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 30 2012, 03:16

Axes always have blades, lances always have blades, mauls often do too. I'm not picking a side.

Mordred - the issue isn't "beating MEQs" so much as the HQ's role.

A Haemonculus unlocks Wracks. So there's probably a unit of Wracks somewhere in that army. 2 Pain Tokens (+1 from the Wracks) means you're Strength 6 (3+1 from furious charge+2 from maul) on the charge, and those Wracks can threaten a tank now.

An Archon is Strength 3. A Power Lance is required to get Strength 4. Combat drugs are unreliable, and unless you waste a Raider/Venom's worth of points on a 2nd HQ you aren't getting any Wracks to join, so you start with zero pain tokens. This is now a risky proposition - if your opponent declines the challenge, you'll still do some damage to their squad, but unless you do enough damage, they'll try to knock out your Shadowfield and kill you once your Strength and AP drop back down. S3 AP4 may still ignore Necrodermis... but the S3 is suddenly way weaker, and half the books are Toughness 4.

Now you may say, "Ah! But for those other books the Archon is fantastic, and even a basic Power Maul will chew through Necrons and anything weaker!" and this is true. But tell me - wouldn't a Venom or some Splinter Rifles do that way better?

EDIT: I still think a Power Lance is too risky for my liking, but if you accept the Djin = unusual ruling AND insist on an Archon, Power Lance+Blast Pistol and a Shadowfield will serve you well.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 30 2012, 06:34

Power Lance is a weapon for assault, it needs some other weapon to pair with it, most likely venom blade. Thats 20 points, more worth then Agoniser for the same price.

Also, dont forget about intervention rule. You can safely challenge and then leave that challege if you dont kill enemy character, most of our sergeants will easily make required Initative test.

Combat drugs combine really good with it.


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W'fo
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 30 2012, 14:30

For my archon I normally run a d-jin blade and venom blade with varrying haywires,soul trap, and very uncommon blast pistol. The djin blade being ap3 really helps me against alot of players here them all playing space marines negating there armor saves, and the venom blade for just the sheer number of wounds when needed Razz

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Agahnim
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 06:11

Azdrubael you don't need another weapon, the basic splinter pistol or a blast pistol still gives you an extra attack. If the issue is wounding on a 2+, it doesn't really matter - the only wounds that count are the unsaved ones.

But that's a good call on Intervention, nice one! Wink - suddenly the PGL + Incubi got a LOT better! Or Grotesques, now that Fleet has changed. Power Sword/Djin Sword seems to be a much better option if you can have a Grotesque dive in while the Archon finishes the squad off.

Archon, PGL, Djin Blade, Blaster, Splinter Pistol, Clone Field, WWP = 175
3 Grotesques

Archon drops portal off Turn 1. Grotesques cannot test for Berserk Rampage (start of movement phase) until after the turn they come on - and at that point the Archon has joined them. Liquifier gun is only as filler, extra grotesques are a waste, this unit as is will begin combats and end them reliably on the opponent's next turn. Venom Blade is unecessary, you really won't ever need it and the pistol is for +1 attack without compromising the blaster's 18" range.

Has anyone checked to see how the Soul-Trap functions in 6th? Is it still Independent characters only?
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 06:21

As far as I know it is independent characters only and I don't see it likely that it gets changed to all characters due to the fact that a basic soul trap archon plus huskblade will kill and space marine sargeant or just about any normal squad leader easily and soul trap for str 6, that's just asking for too much if you ask me. Soul-trap archons would just become silly in how good they'd be provided you make your 2++ saves

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 31 2012, 12:32

Out of the three options I like to take the Venom Blade. It is cheap and effective. Otherwise I take a Huskblade.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon?   Venom Blade, Djinn blade or Agonsier for my Archon? I_icon_minitime

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