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Mushkilla
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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 14:16

When it comes to Nightshields and the new rule set, specifically with the new Rapid Fire rules, how does the math play out?

I've always played it in an Order of operations method that says
Max Range/Rapidfire-Night shields=New Range (M/R-S=N)
But I've been told that the rules read it should be subtracted from the weapons range statistic so it would look like
(M-S)/R=N

In real number see the charts below.

On Nightshields Ns_pre10

Now for further thought the applicable rule book sections read as follows:
BRB, PG 53 "A model using a Rapid Fire weapon can shoot once at maximum range. Alternatively, if the target is within half maximum range, it can fire twice"

and

DE Codex, Pg 63 "This has the effect of reducing the range of enemy units wishing to fire at the vehicle by 6." and "Extra distance is also counted for working out if the vehicle is in rapid fire range, half the range for meltashot, and so on."

So is it 24/2-6 or (24-6)/2?
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 14:45

(24-6)/2 or (N-6)/2, where N is the range of the weapon being fired.

NS reduce the maximum range of the weapon (that was faq'd) by 6 inches, meaning 24" to 18" for bolters.

Rapid fire range is a function of maximum weapon range, so if your maximum range is affected, then your rapid fire is as well. Just like our codex says, it is counted for working it out.

Seems fairly straightforward to me, to play it otherwise seems somewhat overpowered; bolter rapid fire would be only 6". Nice, but we could with splinter rack gunboats rapid fire and hit statistically 16+ times at @ 12" range, and force an opponent to move really close to get their rapid fire bonus. I just dont see us getting such a wardian advantage, intended or not.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 14:51

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
I just dont see us getting such a wardian advantage, intended or not.

Best line ever. Very Happy

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 14:56

Dark Eldar FAQ - "In the second sentence, change 'reducing the range of enemy units' to 'reducing the range of the weapons of enemy units'."

Does not actaully mention Maximum so the argument could still be valid... though I agree it seems to be getting more tenuous.

So does range refer to stat line range? or range of declared attack (a rapid fire attack having a range = to 1/2 guns max range?)

At this point it's pretty settled in my mind, pro (24-6)/2=9", as the other option has become conveluted
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 15:09

It is old question. Both melta and rapid-fire work at half weapon range.

As nightshields reduce weapon range, new range halved will be range, where melta and rapid fire will work.

(24-6)/2

I.e. Melta Gun will have melta effect from 3" away.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 15:16

That being said it did reduce rapid fire range to 6" in 5th. As in 5th edition rapid fire was 12" and not half the range of the weapon. So it might be something a lot of players overlook.

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 16:18

BRB Pg 2
"Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both '+l Strength' and 'double Strength', its final Strength is 9 (4x2=8, 8+l =9). If a model with Strength 4 has both '+l Strength' and 'strength 8', its final Strength is g (ignore +l Strength and set it at 8 )."

So by this Paragraph you do multiplication and division before subractions. Which would say NS is applied after Rapid Fire/Melta
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 17:09

as Baku pointed out, multiplication and division happens before addition or subtraction. So math wise it looks something like this:

Bolter=24"; so 24"/2-6"=6" rapid fire range
tau rifle=30"; so 30"/2-6"= 9" rapid fire range
melta=12"; so 12/2=6" range, 6/2= 3" for melta (as melta is done during a different subphase, and uses the modified range caused by the nightshields for determining if you get the extra D6)

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 17:30

My argument is that rapid fire and melta are not modifiers to the weapons range. They are both trigger "conditions", if you are within half of your weapons maximum range X happens. Just because you are within half of your weapons range does not halve the range of the weapon.

Quote :

A model armed with a rapid fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away. Alternatively, it can instead fire one shot at a target over half the weapon's range away, up to the weapon's maximum range. - Rapid Fire Weapons BRB page 52

Interesting to note, that this edition you can't chose not to rapid fire, if you are within half of your weapons range you have to rapid fire and shoot twice, as you can only shoot once over half range and not under.

Quote :
Ranged weapons roll an additional D6 when rolling to penetrate vehicle's armour at half range or less. If the weapon is more than half its maximum range away, it rolls to penetrate as normal. - Melta Rule BRB page 39

Again another "condition" that doesn't affect the weapons range, but triggers an effect if within half of the weapons range.

In short neither melta nor rapid fire halve the range of weapons, and therefore are not modifiers.

As a result, a 24" range rapid fire weapon that is shooting a target with a night shield will have it's range reduced to 18", if it then shoots a target target with half that range (9") it will shoot twice. A 12" range melta weapon that is shooting a target with a night shield will have it's range reduced to 6", if it then shoots a target target with half that range (3") it will roll two dice for penetration.

Hope that helps. Smile

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 17:41

I dont think weapon ranges count as "model characteristics" either, so the formula you've quoted Baku wont hold. I read it as meant for modifying most stat lines with multiple modifiers, like a charging ork Nob with a power claw etc.

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
I just dont see us getting such a wardian advantage, intended or not.

Best line ever. Very Happy

Cheers mate! Very Happy

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 17:46

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
I dont think weapon ranges count as "model characteristics" either, so the formula you've quoted Baku wont hold. I read it as meant for modifying most stat lines with multiple modifiers, like a charging ork Nob with a power claw etc.

Interesting point!

Back down the tunnels of research! Surely there is precident or simplistic way to find that issue out!
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 23 2012, 18:03

it says model's rule and wargear rule the weapon and the night shield are both wargear so qualify and it says "a" characteristic not "a models". A weapons range would be a characteristic of a weapon the same way the melta special rule is a characteristic of a melta or fusion gun or the lance special rule on lance weapons
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 14:43

I would argue that range is not a characteristic, it is a derived value from a piece wargear.

As per brb p3;

"Every model in warhammer 40k has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics."
On the table shown, range is not one of them. WS,BS,S,T,W,I,A,LD,Sv+ are all that are listed.

Baku already quoted the brb from p2 re: multiple modifiers and how they apply to characteristics, range does not seem to be one of them (as above according to the brb) so it looks like rapidfire bolters firing at a NS equipped raider get a range of 9 inches [(24-6)/2=9]

If you can show me however where it lists range as a model characteristic, and we can apply the multiple modifiers formula to that, I would gladly cut my opponents rapid fire range down to 6 inches!

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 24 2012, 15:29

i dont think i can show anywhere it being a model characteristic but that rule is only listing model characteristics not wargear characteristics is the only argument i can think of
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 25 2012, 07:05

But there is no changing or subtracting or, in fact, any complex mathemathic operation.

THe only thing that Night Shield do is to reduce range of enemy weapons thats all.


Some of those weapons have specials rule that will change their stats based on range to target. Night Shield have already played their part, they dont do anything special here. Thats pretty much it.

Bolter 24 S4 Ap5, Rapid Fire

After NS

Bolter 18 S4 Ap5, Rapid Fire ---- > Space Marine will fire now that weapon, and using Rapid Fire rules it will fire twice more shots at Half Range. What is Range? 18. Means Half Range will be 9.


Thats a buff to bolter, whether before Rapid Fire was only 12 inches and not at half range away and would be reduced to 6.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: On Nightshields   On Nightshields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 25 2012, 08:31

I agree with Azdrubael. Reduce range by 6" and then work out any other effects based on the new range.

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