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 Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?

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PostSubject: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 09:00

This discussion popped up in the tactics forum. Here are the arguments so far:

@Septimus wrote:
No, the djinn blade is a power weapon with +2 attacks. A power weapon is defined in the rulebook as being either a sword, maul, axe or lance.

@Murkglow wrote:
And right after that section it goes on to say:
"If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

The Djinn blade most certainly does have its own unique close combat rules which seems to clearly indicate that it is defined as an AP3 weapon (ie a power sword) and does not give it the Sword/Axe/Mace/Lance option.

@Septimus wrote:
Where do you get the idea that a melee weapon is automatically a sword? It most certainly does not have it's own unique special rules, only +2 "normal" attacks as per weapon type.

According to the dex a djin blade is a power weapon - the rules you refer to as "special abilities" are e.g.: a lightning claw allows you to re-roll to wound ... because it's a claw.

A djin blade can be any type of power weapon, the +2 attacks are not tied to a specific type of weapon unlike the special abilities confered to a thunderhammer (Initiative 1 and concussive because it's a hammer), lightning claws etc. - it's just that, +2 attacks. Nothing "special" about those attacks in any way, except "power" but what kind of "power" does depend on what the weapon looks like according to the rulebook as you have to model it.

Furthermore, it clearly states in the FAQ that you do get a bonus attack for having an additional melee weapon (or pistol). A weapon classified as having a unique ability tied to a given weapon type does not get that bonus attack unless paired with another special abilities weapon, e.g. a pair of lightning claws gives you +1 attack but you would not get that bonus attack if you only have one claw because the claw is a special abilities weapon type.


Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 09:16

The djinn is an unusual power weapon and thus AP3.

It definatley has it's own unique rules (+2 attacks, attack user etc) - not sure how this is even in question

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 09:16

Seems pretty clear to me. The weapon description clearly says it is a power weapon but then goes onto describe the special rules that apply to the weapon.

The rulebook says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the rnodel to tell which type of power weapon it has"

That doesn't apply because it has further special rules. So we then read onto:

"If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the
additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry"

Djin Blades have their own unique close combat rules and are therefore AP3 melee weapons, regardless of how they are modelled.

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 09:34

@Massaen wrote:
The djinn is an unusual power weapon and thus AP3.

This right here

Doesn't matter if its a Blade, Sword, Knife, Dagger or Beat stick......its a Power Weapon with its own special rules

/thread

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 09:47




Quote :
Doesn't matter if its a Blade, Sword, Knife, Dagger or Beat stick......its a Power Weapon with its own special rules


This.
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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 10:08

Quote :
The djinn is an unusual power weapon and thus AP3.

In the dex it's clearly stated that a djn blade is a power weapon.

Please give me a page number in the rulebook where it's stated that the djin blade is an unusual power weapon.

Further special rules are defined in the special rules section of the rulebook. You can find rules for all kinds of stuff like "concussive", "rending", "fleshbane" etc.

You see any special rule in that section confering "+2 attacks"?

All weapon types have a strength and AP now - strength as user, strength as user x2 or whatever. What's strength do I use for a djin blade? Nowhere does it say it's a sword but it's very clearly stated in the dex that it's a power weapon... which means I have to choose one on the list.

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 10:13

@Septimus wrote:
Quote :
The djinn is an unusual power weapon and thus AP3.

In the dex it's clearly stated that a djn blade is a power weapon.

Please give me a page number in the rulebook where it's stated that the djin blade is an unusual power weapon.

Rulebook, page 61
"If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry"

You're welcome.

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 10:23

Some examples of weapons that fit the description of unique power weapons:

Quote :
Electrocorrosive whip: An electrocorrosive whip is a power weapon. Models which... (unique rule) - DE codex page 56
Quote :
Agoniser: An agoniser is a power weapon that... (unique rule) - DE codex page 56
Quote :
Djin Blade: A djin blade is a power weapon. Furthermore... (unique rule) - DE codex page 56

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 11:03

Yep, your not given permission to look at the model for its type as you have additional rules in the entry

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 11:14

Count has it.

And as for "what strength do I use" quetion, as there are no special rules, or a fixed number I would play this as User Strength

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 13:09

Well, at least Mush is contributing something to this debate - unlike the rest of you guys. Even if he doesn't agree with me.

Let's go through them one by one:

I'll start with the agonizer: "though agonizers come in a variety of forms, the most common are whips or barbed flails. Agonizers are power weapons that always wound on a 4+, regardless of the enemy's toughness"

Okay, so I could take an agonizer axe if I wanted ... but I won't get the statisticks of an axe because the "always wounds on a 4+" is an unusual effect of the weapon itself.

Electrocorrosive whip: "an electrocorrosive whip is a power weapon. Models that suffer one or more unsafed wounds from an electrocorrosive whip halve their Strength (rounding fractions up) for the remainder of the close combat round"

So its a power weapon, but it doesn't say anything about the weapon coming in any other forms. Its always a whip - and the "halving strength" is an effect of the weapon.

Huskblade: "a huskblade is a power weapon that causes instant death upon any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of the victim's Toughness"

Its a power weapon, which means I could model it any way I like but that won't change anything as it actually is a special rule - because "instant death" is in the special rules section.
Until it got faq'ed it was actually ap3 ... right?

Glaive encarmine: its a mastercrafted, two-handed power weapon. Ap3? Not if it's an axe like you also get in the Sanguinary guard box. Then its Ap2, why? Because mastercrafted and two-handed weapon is not an effect of the weapon. Mastercrafted just allows you to re-roll 1 to hit roll ... or are you guys going to tell me that a master crafted power axe is actually only Ap3 because it now has a "further special rule". I hope not Smile

Back to the Djin blade: its a power weapon but it does not have any unusual effect that influence how it hits, wounds or does anything unusual like halving stregnth, instant killing or otherwise affects the target.
It just gives you 2 extra attacks, which are not unusual in any way (the Mauler fiend's extra melta hits after hitting with one or more of its attacks would be an unusual effect).

Unusual power weapons, rulebook p. 61: many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and charecteristics presented in its entry.

The Djin blade does have an additional rule, which is the +2 attacks ... but these extra attacks doesn't do anything unusual.

The Djin blade does not have any characteristics e.g. like always wounding on a 4+ like the agonizer or speial effects defined in the special rules section.

From the DE FAQ: Page 53 – Lady Malys, The Lady’s Blade.
Change the second sentence to read “The Lady’s Blade is an
AP3 melee weapon.”

Why didn't they just say "all Djin blades are AP3 melee weapons" if that was the case?

They didn't because you choose what type of weapon your djin blade is, unless it's Lady Malys' unusual djin blade.

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 13:21

Sory but you're wrong and you've been given the explicit rules reference to explain why. What this boils down to is whether the Djin Blade has "its own unique close combat rules". I really, really, really, cannot see how you are even attempting to argue that it does not.

There really is nothing else to add here.

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 13:47

They had to FAQ Encarmines for the very reason that until otherwise they were "unique power weapons".

BA FAQ

Quote :

Q: Are Glaive Encarmines treated as ‘unusual power weapons’ (and
therefore AP 3), or do they follow the rules for power axes/swords as
defined by the type of weapon the model is carrying? (p50)
A: Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Types
of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed
special rules.

They would therefore have the following profiles.
....

GK FAQ

Quote :

Page 54 – Nemesis Force Weapons, Force Weapons.
Change the first sentence to read “Unless otherwise stated, all
Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in
the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.”

And nemesis falchions are described as follows in the rule book.

Quote :

The wielder of a pair of nemisis falchions has +1 Attack

SW FAQ

Quote :

Page 57 – Space Wolves Wargear, Frost Blade or Frost Axe

Replace the last sentence with the following profiles:

And so on. So GW have FAQed all the "unique power weapons" that they thought should have different profiles, the huskblade being one of them (it was an unusual power weapon until they FAQed it).




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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 14:49

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 15:50

Here is the jist.

U unsual power weapon is one that has a special rule attached to it. Lets, for example, take the GK hailberd. It is a power weapon that is +2 Init. The rulebook and FAQ clearly says that it is to be treated as an unusual power weapon, so it is AP3.

A glavie ecarmine had its own special rules (two handed, master crafted) so it was considered an unusual power weapon until GW FAQed it to be a power weapon with two handed, master crafted special rule.

The Axe of Moraki for Logan Grimnar was FAQed to a frost axe, which gave him +2 strength and AP2 at I1, which was redundant due to him also having a powerfist. Later it was FAQed to be a frost blade, even though it clearly is an axe.

All of these examples show how GW has changed their weapons around when they have special rules. Clearly no normal power weapon gives you +2 attacks. It is a special rule that is added to the Dijinn Blade. It has not been FAQed to be anything different other than +2 Attacks. Therefore it is an Unusual Power Weapon due to having the special rule +2 Attacks and the ability to hurt the user.

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 21:25

@Septimus wrote:
Well, at least Mush is contributing something to this debate - unlike the rest of you guys.

Quit trolling. You just don't like the answers we're giving

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PostSubject: Re: Djin Blade and Power Weapon types?   Djin Blade and Power Weapon types? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 19 2012, 21:53

Please no trolling or flaming... This thread is being locked before things get out of hand. The question has been answered completely, and there is no more need for clarification. -Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod SR-

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