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 Hellions as Troops

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 14 2012, 10:36

Okay So I have been thinking how much Hellions have grown on me and that I want to start using more of these guys.

How viable are Hellions as a normal troop choice? (basically how are they alone, not with the baron as part of the squad.)

I know there biggest drawback compared to Warriors and Wyches is they lack any Anti Heavy Weaponry but they tend to have better mobility then our other troop choices ( for the point price).

How should there load out be?
Should they be ran as Multiple Small Units or Maxed out Units?

Whats your take?

edit: clarification

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Last edited by lululu_42 on Sun Oct 14 2012, 21:01; edited 1 time in total
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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 14 2012, 12:25

i havent tried them yet for 6th or even much in 5th but i wouldnt go with small units they are just too easy to kill.

the best use ive seen for them is a big unit with the baron hopping from cover to cover and just shooting and then charging units as they become a managable size.

otherwise i cant suggest much im sorry
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 14 2012, 14:15

I have tried Hellions a couple of times before, and although they are fun, I would not say that they are effective enough for the price. They look like they should be awesome at CC, and where they do hack up Guardsmen and Orks qite nicely on the charge, I find their shooting attack much more worthy to cause damage.

Personally I would never take them without the Baron. He brings so much extra to the squad. Don't take them as small squads unless you are using them just as an irritating distraction, as they will get cut to pieces.

I might use them more and experiment with them in my next coupld of games, as I am no Hellion expert, but so far I have prefered Warrior Gunboats.

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 14 2012, 16:00

First off a quick note that they're not troops without the Baron.

I run them with the Baron in two small six man squads. The Baron doesn't stay with them (he has other things to do). Each group of six hellions puts out as many shots as a venom (with shorter range). They can move around pretty quick and grab objectives. As with anything in DE they really need to utilize terrain. Remember you don't have to use the skyboards when entering terrain.

I wouldn't use them for close combat. DE have better choices (incubi and beasts). Hellions need at least two pain tokens to get anywhere near viable in close combat and you need a big squad to make that work. Some people do it but I think they're much better as a shooty unit.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 14 2012, 18:58

Used Hellions and Baron in a tournament. First game I won before they bothere to show up (got outflank as the Warlord trait so had them and Baron stay in reserves). Second game I underestimated how many hits Space Wolves do even when you charge them (infact, as defensive grenades don't work on countercharge, they hit harder than if you let them charge you). Baron went on to kill 4 Long Fangs before failing a chrage and getting shot by half his army (funny thing is he failed his shadow field from the first unit shooting him, but it took 3 more to bring him down due to everything missing or rolling 1 to wound). Third game they failed a 5'' charge, even with rerolls, and got Charge by 20 assault marines with furious charge. Baron and 2 surviving Hellions flew off, and claimed the enemy capture and controll objective (still lost from killpoints and regular objectives). Last game against Necorns, Zahndrek too away their stelth and they got shot up pretty badly. Still wiped out a 10man Warrior squad before getting stuck in combat against a C'tan (Zahndrek too their hit and run). Baron ended up dying on the last turn, costing me the game.

I don't think they're bad, alto I got somewhat unlucky a few times (like failing a 5 inch charge), but considering I didn't really get much use of them being troops (only in 1 game, and even in that I could've just driven a Venom with Warriors I had nearby to the objective), I think I'll switch them to Beastmasters, who do the same thing but are more durable and somewaht better in melee.

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wittykid
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 15 2012, 02:56

Hellions are great as troops, I find they work really well as a hidden gem that often gets overlooked by my enemies. When I play them I try to make sure there are a few other things nearby them so my opponent has to choose between them and whatever else is near and I find using a medium to big squad works best, oh and include the baron don't bring hellions without him. The thing you have to remember about hellions is that they have a high number of attacks on the charge at str 4 however you have to really look into their gear and what not to realize how much damage they can do. Throw them at anything without a great armour save and they'll kill quite a bit. One of the best things about them though is hit and run as you can keep getting the charge using hit and run allowing you to have plenty of attacks and if you got furious charge even more killing power, or even use hit and run to slingshot them. Oh yeah never forget to shoot at something you're charging with them either assault 2 poison weapons on jump infantry that can hit anything without a great armour save are nothing to be scoffed at

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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 15 2012, 14:45

Gotta have the Baron for to make the hellions troops obviously and I would take him regardless because he adds so much to the army for so little points.

As for hellions, at first glance and in your first couple games they can be difficult to master. Running a big squad with the Baron is common as it is an easy way to compensate for their fragility.
If you decide to go with say a larger unit of 14 for the Baron squad and you should to get full use of his points, and then decide to take squads of 8 (close to the same points costs as your warrior venoms and put out similar shooting power at full strength).

In order for this to work though I feel you will need alot of army synergy to really boost the hellions power.

-Haemonculi to give out a few pain tokens for whatever units start on the table. FNP for hellions is a must.

-Haemonculs or two with a WWP would work well with this style of army as with good placement you can pop out behind some cover and have good fire lanes on week elements of the opponents army.

-The Duke in higher points values really works well with combat drug armies for obvious reasons throw him in for a good chance at better roles on the table. Pain tokens (roll a 6) for all would be awesome for 4-6 squads of hellions.

-Have other scary targets to take the heat from the hellions for the first couple of turns. Reaver Jetbikes turboboosting are a great distraction unit and fairly survivable doing it. I love when my opponent spends a turn shooting 3+ cover bikes with FNP and forgets the rest of my army. Taloi would work well here as well, as if someone doesnt kill the Taloi before reaching their lines they wont be having a fun day.

So I would say it is possible to run this style of army however a difficult one to run for sure. If you go into the game thinking you are fragile (just about everything APs you and Str6 ignores your FNP) and play as such, looking for cover or getting completely out of LOS the army could be alot of fun.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 15 2012, 20:37

I am one of the guys that just love them and think that in 5th, with the Baron, they were the by far the best troop choice we had. Of course, the rules were different then, they moved farther, charged whenever they wanted (like out of a wwp) and could tackle either infantry or armor (yes, I sometimes got them to str. 6 on the charge, the baron at str. 7!).

So my advice kinda stops here as I haven't used them in 6th yet. 6th would make me use them a little different than before but most of their qualities are still there once you get past the, "no charging when they appear" rule. One thing I liked most about them is that combined with the shooting phase, their strength and combat drug they hit twice as hard as wyches do on the charge. A total glass hammer example and if they failed to hit hard enough, they did struggle. I often found a support unit of wyches or wracks or whatever sometimes was needed beyond the initial turn they charged as to help them get over their target. Hence, their ability to leave the fight also was a neat option that can be overlooked by the opponent easily - happened all the time.

I wish I had some personal experience with Hellions in 6th but I do not, I can only guess. So my guess is:

I think they are still under-appreciated and have a ton of options on the game board to make them excellent choices. Of course, expert win at all cost players will caution you that they do need a lot of care in there use and consider them "situational". So yah, not a beginners choice but rather for experienced players in friendly and local tournaments they will be more than fine. Beyond that I can not say.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 15 2012, 21:24

My experience with them in 6th has been very poor even with the Baron attached.
They don't mellee all that well and 2 shots at 18" isn't that great either.

But, I thier mobility allows them to back up your troops locked in cc and get away to grab objectives as needed. The best use I got out of them was to come in and support a unit of wyches then run away to snag an objective before the game ended.

For the use I've gotten out of them 1 large squad seems better, and the Baron's re-roll failed dangerous terrain was nice

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 16 2012, 11:50

As an assault unit they're not great (as I found out), but they do make for very mobile troops that are decent in shooting and assault.

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 16 2012, 16:05

I don't think they're that good at anything specific, but they are good in general. They have speed to grab objectives. A squad of six shots at least as well as a venom (if not as far). If you need them to assault something, they can do ok (they have combat drugs)... I take them as a problem solving unit. They're not the best at anything but they are pretty good at most things. As a troops choice they have more problem solving options. As a fast attack choice they're not as useful. As I mentioned before, don't run the baron with them... run him along side the incubi... He is sooo much better with them.
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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 16 2012, 16:52

I'm really looking forward to trying them in my list with Eldar allies. I'm thinking 4++ from divination on a large unit of 17 with the Baron and FNP could be really nasty. Obviously I won't get that roll every time but I'll be giving them the PT from a unit of 3 wracks via the Baron. I'll post some battle reports when they arrive, get built and I start gaming with them.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 16 2012, 17:15

It seems from the consensus that people have been using a decent size squad 10 or more along with the baron.

I was thinking about building a list where the troops where ether (minus the baron escort squad) a bunch of MSU Hellion units or a bunch of 10 man units and use them to harass while my other units will get the job done.

I feel that if you want to run them you are going to ever take only one squad and run him with the baron.

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions as Troops   Hellions as Troops I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 17 2012, 01:30

@lululu_42 wrote:

I feel that if you want to run them you are going to ever take only one squad and run him with the baron.

Yea I think this is right. Especially as for 30pts you can effectively give the whole unit FNP so you want as many Hellions benefiting from this as possible.
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