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 Beating Imperial Guard?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 08:06

Seeing as there seemed to be some discussion on the topic in this thread. I thought it would make sense to make thread in the tactics section about how to beat imperial guard. I am playing guard next week and I think my opponent has a very competitive list and would be a good illustration of what a good guard list looks like:

Imperial Guard List:

HQ
Company Command Squad, 4 plasma guns
chimera, heavy flamer

TROOPS
10 Veteran Squad, 3 plasma guns
chimera, heavy flamer
10 Veteran Squad, 3 plasma guns
chimera, heavy flamer
10 Veteran Squad, 3 plasma guns
chimera, heavy flamer
10 Veteran Squad, 3 plasma guns
chimera, heavy flamer
10 Veteran Squad, 3 plasma guns
chimera, heavy flamer

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta
Vendetta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Griffon, heavy flamer
Griffon, heavy flamer
Griffon, heavy flamer

Total: 1500

How do we beat a list like this?

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 08:17

Is that what the internet would consider a standard "dirty" IG list? Looks immensely boring to play with, and against, in my eyes. But then again, most standard "dirty" internet lists are, I suppose...

Use a comms relay to reduce the risk of vendettas arriving early, shoot the chimeras from a safe distance and due to my own ignorance (since I don't know what they do exactly) I don't have to bother about the griffons...? Sounds like a plan!
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 08:42

I don't rate this terribly well to be honest... A mix of vets and platoons works best and manticores are ace as are hydras... Even with the changes to them

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 09:05

@Massaen wrote:
I don't rate this terribly well to be honest... A mix of vets and platoons works best and manticores are ace as are hydras... Even with the changes to them

Well that was helpful.

So what's do you face at 1500 points and how do you beat it?

Advice would be greatly appreciated. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 09:21

I don't have any strong suggestions for the Vendettas, but against IG carpark-type affairs I have had success with multiple Shredderborn squads. Against the vehicles themselves, and the squishy bits inside when they are forced out. You just have to touch the hull with blast weapons, and IG can often be close enough together that you can hit two vehicles with one shot.

I try to maneuver for a side or rear shot as much as possible, and with that in mind I usually transport them in Dissie Raiders which can then be used effectively for similar shots. A couple of Venoms hanging around open up on the passengers as soon as they appear.

I never expect the Shredderborn to last very long, so I toss them in early and fast. But so far they have survived fairly well for a few turns, especially when there are a few Shardcarbines accompanying them to provide a numbers cushion and added AI.

I keep everything on the move as much as possible. I also have a couple of Reaver squads buzzing around, and maybe some Grots on the charge, so my opponent has to choose among several threats.
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 09:26

The 2 regular guard players I face tend to go...

Command squad, chimera (1 takes melta and the other keeps it cheap)

Platoon of 30+5 with 4 chimeras - flamers typically in the units and auto cannons on occasion
1-2 vets with melta or plasma in chimera
2-3 vendetta
1-3 hydra
1-2 manticore
1-2 Russ

Ultimately, be it this or your list above, DE struggle against IG mech. We simply can't contain the fire power where every vehicle is a threat to our boats. In the past, I have had success with Grots, once the manticore is gone as well as reavers with heat lances (should be no shorter to you!) once the hydras are gone.

IMO it's the flyers that are the toughest. We really lack AA to deal with multiple independent vendetta.

Bizarrely I have found mandrakes to be OK as long as you can get them a token quickly and have ruins to infiltrate in. Once they get a second token (not to hard if you pop a chimera) they threaten a parking lot in a big way with S5

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 09:29

You might want to Turbo-Boost with Reavers and completely surround Griffon. Place Meltagunner at the front - to make Death Or Glory if he will decide to tank shock. That is also tactic for Chimeras.

Blasts and Templates cant be placed touching friendly model. That means you will be fairly protected against both flamers and barrages.

That is Hyper Agressive enough so you can dictate pace of battle afterwards.

Quote :
. We simply can't contain the fire power where every vehicle is a threat to our boats

There is just 2 boats in Mushkillas list.
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 10:01

He hasn't posted his list here... I took the thread as a general thread. Let's face it, his list isnot the norm

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 10:02

@ massean
i have played similar lists but with more manticores no russes plus an aegis defence line and the most effective counter i've found is to use large squads of beastmasters and clear the parking lot asap.
for while manticores put on a lot of hurt usually i can crash into their lines by turn 2 so the damage is bearable. as a general rule though if you can clear their ground troops/parking lot by around turn 3-4 most list can generally take out at least one vendetta normally and then just take some punishment until they go into hover mode or drop their vets at wich stage you pounce on them securing a DE victory.

things to look out for when trying to beast rush them is
1. take atleast 2 squads otherwise they'll be disabled before they can do enough damage
2. make sure you run them with enough khymerea to soak up the wounds

otherwise i try rushing them with haywire grenade wyches but they usually get shot to pieces or held up in combat too long with pesky guardsmen.
hope that helps,
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 11:27

@Azdrubael wrote:
You might want to Turbo-Boost with Reavers and completely surround Griffon. Place Meltagunner at the front - to make Death Or Glory if he will decide to tank shock. That is also tactic for Chimeras.

Heavy flamers on the Griffons and Chimeras will put a stop to this plan very quickly. It doesn't matter how fast you move if you're not getting a cover save, and he's not going to tank shock if he can just cook everything.

This sounds like a really tough list to play against, especially when getting inside melta range is so important to yours. I played against a mech IG list recently, and it went very well. I still lost, but that was perhaps because I got carried away with killing things and forgot about the relic (always my downfall). I found the Talos to be useful for drawing fire, and with two of them in your list that shouldn't be a problem. Heat lances will still be able to crack open the side armour of Chimeras, so I adopted a kind of pincer movement. If you keep something scary and shooty in the middle, whichever way he turns to face threats means you can get shots on the side armour. It's very intimidating as well, which is always good for the psychological aspect! My list is very different to yours, but I'd think it can still work. The other advantage to this is that by keeping your stuff close to board edges, he'll be forced to fly his Vendettas off the board if he wants to line up strafing runs. I'd start almost everything on the table too, as playing reserve heavy will mean he has a lot of shooting landing on not much stuff. I'd keep a squad of Reavers in reserve ready to boost over the passengers of a cracked Chimera, but that's about it.

I also used wracks in that game (I always use wracks now). They're really useful for mincing up guard squads, especially with a haemonculus for that second pain token. That means they can glance his tanks to death as well (just like mine did).

The list I played didn't have any griffons in it, but it did have Manticores. Presumably the griffons will sit at the back, claiming cover from the Chimera wall or whatever building they're plonked behind whilst they shell your stuff. Hopefully the dice will favour you like they did me and give you turn one night fighting, but in case they don't, it's these you'll want to get rid of first if you can. How possible that is will depend on how well your opponent deploys, but they're still only Chimeras underneath, so sweep round and hit them in the side armour again.

Vendettas - the list I played against had two. I managed to down one when it went into hover mode to drop off passengers, and this is of course the best time to try and get them. Heat lances will be out of melta range unless you can get your Reavers on top of a building next to one of them. If you're lucky you'll uncover a skyfire objective, but obviously you can't bank on that. The normal tactics against flyers (run to their board edge and sit there thumbing your nose at them) obviously won't work against outflanking ones, but sticking to the edges of the board will minimise the damage they can do. They can still only wreck one vehicle a turn, but they won't go for the vehicles, they're what you'll lose your Taloi to most likely, potentially both in the same turn. If this happens, they've at least stopped them firing at something else.

It's easy to get disheartened when looking at a list like this, because the assumption is that everything in his army will hit and nothing will scatter, doing the maximum amount of damage to everything. And yeah, of course this is possible. It's unlikely though. Focus on secondary objectives if at all possible, linebreaker and slay the warlord shouldn't be impossible, and first blood is a possibility too, depending on where he hides him. Just keep track of the victory points, always be counting them up - that's been my problem more than once. Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 11:44

Quote :
Heavy flamers on the Griffons and Chimeras will put a stop to this plan very quickly. It doesn't matter how fast you move if you're not getting a cover save, and he's not going to tank shock if he can just cook everything.

When he is *cooking* by the vehicle itself it will hit maximum 1-2 target and dont use its blast weapon.
I dont mean clump around - i mean literally form a ring around a vehicle.

And parking lot usually dont have place enough to do it with other vehicles, cause you cant place Templates over Friendly vehicles.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 14:45

@Kurdush wrote:
(since I don't know what they do exactly) I don't have to bother about the griffons...?

Griffons are super cheap accurate (re-roll scatter dice) 48" range S6 AP4 ordnance barrage weapons, that are one of the best snipers in the game thanks to the changes to barrages.

@Gobsmakked wrote:
but against IG carpark-type affairs I have had success with multiple Shredderborn squads. Against the vehicles themselves, and the squishy bits inside when they are forced out. You just have to touch the hull with blast weapons, and IG can often be close enough together that you can hit two vehicles with one shot.

Desperate times when we must turn to the humble shredder to save us, valid point though, now that AP- doesn't penalise damage rolls.

@Massaen wrote:

Ultimately, be it this or your list above, DE struggle against IG mech. We simply can't contain the fire power where every vehicle is a threat to our boats. In the past, I have had success with Grots, once the manticore is gone as well as reavers with heat lances (should be no shorter to you!) once the hydras are gone.

Yeah it really is a nightmare match up. I think hydras are very specialised this edition (I would only really see then if my opponent was tailoring against DE) Vendettas seem to do AA better. I have noticed Griffons becoming more popular as they are so cheap and accurate barrage snipers, Manticores are great but I find they become a liability to your own forces once enemies close the distance due to friendly fire.

It's such a hard matchup as if you run traditional DE mech you die to S6-7 shooting, If you run coven you eat S10 pie plates, if you run reavers every transport has a heavy flamer, if you run pain engines they will just eat plasma.

@Massaen wrote:

Bizarrely I have found mandrakes to be OK as long as you can get them a token quickly and have ruins to infiltrate in. Once they get a second token (not to hard if you pop a chimera) they threaten a parking lot in a big way with S5

That's funny you mention mandrakes, I was actually considering them.

@Azdrubael wrote:
You might want to Turbo-Boost with Reavers and completely surround Griffon. Place Meltagunner at the front - to make Death Or Glory if he will decide to tank shock. That is also tactic for Chimeras.

I actually discussed that in chat with Shadow and Baku yesterday, with 27 reavers you can make a chain 60" long. It also prevents units from disembarking unless they emergency disembark.

@Massaen wrote:
He hasn't posted his list here... I took the thread as a general thread. Let's face it, his list isnot the norm

Yeah you are right it is a general thread, specific suggestions are still welcome though. I'm special. Very Happy

@Glamhadril wrote:
the most effective counter i've found is to use large squads of beastmasters and clear the parking lot asap

I find Griffons and other IG barrage weapons counter beasts too easily as their S6+ pie plates treat the shot as coming from the centre of the blast marker for the purpose of cover and wound allocation.

@Mr Believer wrote:

Heavy flamers on the Griffons and Chimeras will put a stop to this plan very quickly. It doesn't matter how fast you move if you're not getting a cover save, and he's not going to tank shock if he can just cook everything.

I think what Azdrubael means is this (just done to the whole parking lot):
Beating Imperial Guard? Testdeployment

@Mr Believer: Great advice there! I just hope I don't get Hammer and Anvil deployment, or kill points for that mater (I haven't had either in a while)...

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 14:55

Quote :
I think what Azdrubael means is this (just done to the whole parking lot):
Yep, exaclty.

Venoms and Raiders can also be part of this.

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 21:35

I've had success with multiple scourge units with haywire blasters combined with Talos armed with TL haywire blasters.

I would take:

2x 3 Trueborn + 2 dark lances

2x 5 Scourges + 2 haywire blasters

2x Talos + TL haywire blasters (and liquifire guns)

652 points.

Or 2x Razorwing fighters instead of the taloi... comes to 722 with naked razors (I only upgrade them if I have points left after tweaking the rest of the list).

Then add either a large reaver unit or beasts depending on personal preferences. Lucky for us both are good vs. parking lots.

Nice core which even has a chance of splashing a flyer. Each talos has 30.5% chance to hit due to TL.

The guard list I usually fight look something like this:

CCS + 4 plasma + chimera

Psyker squad (6 psykers + overseer)

PCS + 4 flamers
2x inf squads, merged

2-3x Vets in chimera + 3 plasma + AC

2x Vendetta + HB

Manticore

2x 1 Hydra

I don't have the exact list but this should be close to 1500.


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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 12 2012, 22:05

Usually with IG, you win/lose with deployment. You'll want to deploy a big majority of your army on one of his flanks, with a nasty/tough strike team on the other flank (I used to use Taloi for that). Make him commit to killing one or the other. Then blast him with whichever he didn't pick. Also this is not a game you'll want to go second, unless you're sure you are out of sight (not just in cover) because he's got a lot of shots that can take out the transports and really ruin your game before you even get a turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 00:30

@Mushkilla wrote:
I find Griffons and other IG barrage weapons counter beasts too easily as their S6+ pie plates treat the shot as coming from the centre of the blast marker for the purpose of cover and wound allocation.
good point, the way i'd counter this would be by spreading out that maximum 2 inches and mixing some of your khymerea through the razorwing flock keeping only around half upfront. this way only one should die per griffon. also even if you opponent does manage to nail a lot of the razorwing flock your khymerea are still good enough to smash a blob of guardsmen and due to strength 4 they can still clear a parking lot (it should take around 6 per undamaged tank).

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 00:58

Mushkilla...this is what the guy normally runs or this is the list he plans on fighting yours with? I think this is close to what I would do if I were tailoring a guard list specifically to go against dark eldar. Were I you, I would show up with an all infantry guard force and blow the hell out of his griphons first turn...

Hopefully he doesn't reserve, and you can get lots of multi charges with your haywire wyches...or roll the +1 str drug...maybe try out the duke to try and get a better shot atit. For you, I would strongly consider using a few haemys to get feel no pain on your reavers to keep them alive with all the s6 templates and plasma...

A more general responce, I would think about hellions, mostly for the str 4 to open up his transports.

With my own list (shooty kabal, lots of raiders/venoms/warriors/trueborn) I think I would blitz him fast as I could to keep the griphons on their toes and blaster/dissy the hell out of the chimeras. That or maybe try to keep back and snipe the griphons with my ravagers while trying to keep out of range of all the multi lasers...honestly I think either plan would fall appart without a lot of luck.

EDIT
Thinking about it a little more, a unit or two of grots in raiders could come in and bash a few of those chimeras open. Completely forgot about grots...
Also, power mauls add +2 to str righ? Power mauls on wychs might be worth considering. If you can get a multi charge off and put the hekatrix on one chimera and the rest of the squad on another (this is assuming 5 man squads) you'll be close to wrecking both on average right?
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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 12:01

@Fraust wrote:
Mushkilla...this is what the guy normally runs or this is the list he plans on fighting yours with? I think this is close to what I would do if I were tailoring a guard list specifically to go against dark eldar.

No it's what he normally runs, our club has seen a shift towards more infantry, so his list has changed accordingly. He is one of the only player that still runs mech.

I think I could beat him if I got first turn, or night fight. I actually had a chat with him the other day, asking him if we could run the worst case scenario for DE against IG: IG first turn, no night fight, hammer and anvil and kill points. I have to say I have been racking my brain over how to beat it, I even went over most of the deployment scenarios with Shadows Revenge in the TDC chat.

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 14:37

I think the danger as well is making a tailored list to deal with IG.. We need a general list to take all that can still handle IG

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 14:49

@Massaen wrote:
I think the danger as well is making a tailored list to deal with IG.. We need a general list to take all that can still handle IG

That's the important part.

I haven't finalised the list I'm bringing but my lists are all similar (27 reaver + some troops, give or take), and I do always aim for making an all comers list. It just seems like the hardest DE match up by far, even for oddball lists like mine.

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 15:08

I am still inclined to say you need AT weapons at around 1 shot per 80-100 points of your list ideally on multiple platforms to spread the load - after that... Not sure

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 15:39

from the list you showed me that be brings, your best bet will be nightshields. Since he doesnt have anything with more than 36" range other than the griffons (and he will most likely be shooting them at your reavers) this means he has to move forward and away from his bunker to try and bring you down with his plas. The closer he gets to you, the closer you are to haywiring his vehicles.

Also making an IG player shift is probably the single most important thing you can do to mess with his plans. We joke that IG are a static army, but seriously most IG players have that mentality of sit back and shoot in their mind. Making them make movement descisions leads to error, and every error means your one step closer to winning

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PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 13 2012, 19:04

Quote :
I think the danger as well is making a tailored list to deal with IG.. We need a general list to take all that can still handle IG

I just posted the core part of such a general list, which I have had success playing vs. a variety of opponents. It doesn't really matter how you flesh it out.

Take another Fast or Heavy choice if you like and small units of skimmer mounted warriors/wyches/wracks as you prefer to fill it out.

You can also take the Baron if you want for increased chance of starting the game (I believe it's app. 72% chance of starting with the Baron) and flat out all the skimmers turn 1 to increase your saves.
Go all-in, gang-nam style! IG players usually freak out when they can't keep the enemy at range and use their superior fire power to win the game.

I'm not saying this will get you any easy mode wins, nothing will, but it will give you a fair chance of beating IG.

The usual suspect IG list I play against is this:

CCS + 4 plasma + chimera

5 Storm troopers + 2 melta (usually they DS)

Vet squad + 3 plasma + autocannon + chimera
Vet squad + 3 plasma + autocannon + chimera

PCS + 3 flamers
Inf squad
Inf squad
SWS + 3 flamers
SWS + 3 flamers

Vendetta + HB (SWS goes here)
Vendetta + HB (SWS goes here)

Medusa
Medusa
Hydra

1500 points.

I think this IG list is better than the plasma vet spam list - as Shadows Revenge also touched on the plasma spam list has range issues. Espesially vs. night shield skimmers.

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Archon Nazariel of the Kabal of Unrelenting Punishment: Kabalites, what is your profession??
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Mushkilla
Arena Champion
Mushkilla

Posts : 4017
Join date : 2012-07-16
Location : Toroid Arena

Beating Imperial Guard? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 14 2012, 18:29

Had the game today, posted the report for those who are interested (pictures are as usual). Thanks for all the advice. Smile

BR12: The Black Buzzards VS IG Mechanised - 1500pts

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
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“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
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Beating Imperial Guard? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Beating Imperial Guard?   Beating Imperial Guard? I_icon_minitime

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