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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 13:24

A succubus with an agonizer, cost the same as 5 wyches with an agonizing hakatrix. Ad bit of mathhammer and you find out that a succubus kills 2,1 marines on the assault, and the wych unit of five kills 2,2. Almost the same killing power, but the wych unit have more wounds and are scoring. On a competitive level I see no reason to bring a succubus to battle.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 13:34

On a competitive level I would basically never bring an HQ slot anymore.
It's kind of 'meh' to compare an assault HQ's killing power to an assault unit's killing power. Here's the real question;

Take all the assault HQs - Vect, Drahz, Decap...oh, wait, ignore that one. But take a whole slew of them and the Succubus.

Figure out their killing power.

Divide it by their points to get a kill per point ratio.

I'm willing to bet the Succubus ranks quite high. Actually, now I'm really excited and curious about this - I'll do the math later tonight if you don't Wink

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 14:10

@Thor665 wrote:
On a competitive level I would basically never bring an HQ slot anymore.
It's kind of 'meh' to compare an assault HQ's killing power to an assault unit's killing power. Here's the real question;

And this is why I rarely pick anything "combat" in HQ. From models that I have I guess closest one can be... Wazdakka (and only reason why You want his sorry butt are Warbiker Troops).

I guess Succubi is what is left from Archon when You extrude Haemonculus from him... OK fighter but nothing else.

I think that Succubus would score high due to fact that from "it kill stuff and ..." her "..." is "she is cheap". Other HQ contribute a in different way. Like Vect, You pay hefty points for 4+ initiative steal in addition to CC capabilities.
Also take in account staying power - Succubus is rather weak against... everything except rare PW hits. Best she can do is 75% wound negation (a little better than 3+ save) on T3. That's weak.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 16:08

I find the Succubus' staying power to be on par with other DE HQs in combat.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 16:24

I cannot agree with that.

4++ FNP Succubus is worse than 2++ FNP Archon, always. Bigger cost isn't problem if it's not major cost of model (check Necron Lords, if I'm correct they triple their cost if You give them 2+ save instead of 3+, on one wound model)

On the other hand vs. most common hits (S3-5), Haemonculus get same number of wounds. He don't have 4++ (only 6+) save but start with FNP and don't curl up into ball and die until S8 hits. S6 on assault-dedicated units is too common, same on infantry Sergeants. Also, he cost less Wink

I just don't expect too much from someone who fight in leather thongs. She take hits like a girl.

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 16:34

HQ, and there killing power
Let have a try with thesething called mathhammer.
I´m going to assume that we assault.

The standard archon with agonize and shadowfield will kill 2.1 MEQ
The succubus has the same number of attacks and will therefore kill the same number, however that is not including drugs into the account.

Forl 5pts cheaper then the succubus come a Haemonculus with agonize and liqufire gun. Assuming the liqufire score 4 hits before assaults, my math comes down to 2 killed MEQ.
We could replace his agonize for a venomblade, making him even 15pts less. Then he scores 1,5 killed.

Archon with agonize 2,1
succubus with agonize 2,1
Haemonculus with Agonizer 2
Haemonculus with venomblade 1,5

so with HQ kills most pts for pts?
Archon 52pts per killed MEQ
Succubus 40pts per killed MEQ
Haemonculus with agonizer 40pts per killed MEQ
Haemonculus with venom blade 41pts per killed MEQ

The succubus is the most deadly of our standard HQ´s, if you roll a good drug. The Haemonculus on the other hand come with a pain token. The archon on the other hand is the only HQ that can have access to a phantom granadie lancher.
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 16:42

In descending order of cost.

Vect - 4+/2++
Drazhar - 2+
Urien Rakarth - 6+
Lelith - 5+/3++
Duke Sliscus - 4+/2++
Decapitator - 5++
Lady Malys - 5+/4++
Sathypants - 5+/2++
Archon - 5+/2++
Succubus - 6+/4++
Haemy - 6+

She's really basically better than some of the ones who cost more, and is only a point of save worse than others. She's also harder to hit than a lot of the units up there.

Is her save, lol-awesome times!
No.
But it's not exactly 'how pathetic' when looking at all the DE HQs together.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 16:46

Nice work Talos. (though I will note you're ignoring the fleet equation in there - if you give the Haem shooting then you should at least give the other two shooting, though quite frankly I think you should ignore it because the only units Haems are going to assault with, really, are Grots and Wracks, and most people try to deathstar via Wyches/Incubi.

@Talos wrote:
The succubus is the most deadly of our standard HQ´s, if you roll a good drug. The Haemonculus on the other hand come with a pain token. The archon on the other hand is the only HQ that can have access to a phantom granadie lancher.
Drugs should be accounted for, it's part of her basic wargear.
PGL is actually basically useless except for Incubi - I'll agree it's nice there, but it's hardly a selling point - that's more of a Wyches vs. Incubi debate, really.
The Wych can come with a pain token too, if you really want to advertise that - most assault HQ builds will add in a Haem regardless, though I will happily admit the Haem has purpose as a 50 point FNP upgrade option.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 17:18

@Thor665 wrote:

PGL is actually basically useless except for Incubi - I'll agree it's nice there, but it's hardly a selling point - that's more of a Wyches vs. Incubi debate, really

This sounds like a fun debate. Though I feel Incubi V Bloodbrides would be more accurate.

Also, when it comes to cost: even the most basic Archon will have SF, PGL, Ago at the very least, making him/her more expensive than Sathy and Malys. Not that it really matters.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 19:03

I would say most Archon builds don't bother with the PGL - I only accounted for armor in the list I made, adding in an Agoniser for both Succubus and Archon doesn't really change anything except that the Archon would move above Sathypants.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 19:25

Hm. I'd say the main reason to take an Archon over a Succi was the PGL option. Which Archon/unit combos are you thinking of? Clonefield/BBs?

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 19:32

Archon comes with assault grenades - so if he's with Wyches he doesn't need a PGL.
He does benefit from it with Incubi. Does that answer your question? I'm slightly uncertain what you're asking methinks.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 20:15

@Talos wrote:
so with HQ kills most pts for pts?

I think we can't really discuss this point in a vacuum. To take from your example, if you're using an Archon with Wyches, imho you might as well take the Succi instead as their performance should be much the same and you're getting back a substantial amount of points.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 20:45

http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1779-mathammer-all-hq-options-vs-meq-off-charge#18799

Above is mathammer for all HQs killing MEQ...in a vacuum Wink

Also to support my Succubus value claim.

I agree with Ranath about Wyches and not taking Archons - though Archons can provide some value through the Shadowfield if that's your thing.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 21:28

Alright! This got me inspired enough to have a go at math myself.

I worked off 5 entries. Tried to keep it 'common' enough to be relevant.
Quote :
Archon (ago, SF) and 9 Wyches (hekaniser, haywires) in Raider (FF) 318

Succi (ago) and 9 Wyches (hekaniser, haywires) in Raider (FF) 293

Archon (ago, CF) and 9 Bloodbrides (syreniser, S&I x3) in Raider (FF) 347

Succi (ago) and 9 Bloodbrides (syreniser, S&I x3) in Raider (FF) 332

Archon (ago, SF, PGL) and 6 Incubi in Raider (FF) 337
You'll notice the lower number of Incubi... which has its own downsides, I guess, despite their formidable armour. I chose this number to keep the unit in the same price range as the other entries.

There's too many factors for me to take into account, really, so I set a couple of conditions for simplicity's sake:
Quote :
- vs MEQ
- assume charge
- no FC bonus
- no Drugs bonus taken into account Very Happy

Average number of kills per assault phase, for all of the different elements:

Quote :
Archon: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Succi: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Wych unit: 2
(24 * 0.5 * 0.333 * 0.333) = 1.333
(4 * 0.5 * 0.5) = 1.0

Bloodbride unit: 3
(32 * 0.5 * 0.333 * 0.333) = 1.778
(5 * 0.5 * 0.5) = 1.25

Incubi unit: 6
(18 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 6.0

Points per MEQ kill:

Quote :
Archon/Wyches: (318/4) = 79.5
Succi/Wyches: (293/4) = 73.25
Archon/BBs: (347/5) = 69.4
Succi/BBs: (332/5) = 66.4
Archon/Incubi: (337/8 ) = 42.125

Apart from the last unit, the differences are quite marginal. When the PGL does matter it's a huge boost... that's why I think it's the main selling point of the Archon.

EDIT: might be fun to try regular Archon with Beastmasters, it'd be a nice break from Sathy Razz

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 22:34

@Raneth wrote:
EDIT: might be fun to try regular Archon with Beastmasters, it'd be a nice break from Sathy Razz

That would be like fielding Space Sharks (with legs) with Dark Light weapon on their head (Blaster ftw)


I'm surprised how good Incubi made. S***load of PW attack hurt MEQ pretty good Smile

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 21 2011, 23:50

Here's what I came up with for GEQ, using the same entries.

Quote :
Archon: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Succi: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Wych unit: 7
(24 * 0.667 * 0.5 * 0.667) = 5.333
(4 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 1.333

Bloodbride unit: 9
(32 * 0.667 * 0.5 * 0.667) = 7.111
(5 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 1.667

Incubi unit: 8
(18 * 0.667 * 0.667) = 8.0

Points per GEQ kill:

Quote :
Archon/Wyches: (318/9) = 35.333
Succi/Wyches: (293/9) = 32.556
Archon/BBs: (347/11) = 31.545
Succi/BBs: (332/11) = 30.181
Archon/Incubi: (337/10) = 33.7

I have to say, I'm surprised to see the Incubi keeping up with the others under these conditions, even though the characters themselves make a terrible showing. But hell, I'll take it! Incubi rock! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 00:20

I will point out, that including Nets with the Wyches is kind of a backhand blow. You're adding up to 30 points onto the Brides, and not making them any more killy. Max squads of Wyches and Brides that don't have a clonefield trick running should be spamming Hydras or Razorflails - not nets.

I also think not counting drugs is artificially making the Archon look better - but that by itself isn't a drastic shift to the numbers, it's just sort of there and bugs my little anal retentive mind. That said, I'd rather see the re-worked numbers sans nets or plus Hydra/Flails rather than as stands as I feel it's not accurate.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 01:08

@Thor665 wrote:
I will point out, that including Nets with the Wyches is kind of a backhand blow. You're adding up to 30 points onto the Brides, and not making them any more killy. Max squads of Wyches and Brides that don't have a clonefield trick running should be spamming Hydras or Razorflails - not nets.
Yeah, I have to admit to that. But like I said, I tried to adhere to commonly found unit configurations. Like I armed the Wyches with haywires, even though they wouldn't affect this exercise - simply because most people are wont to take them.

@Thor665 wrote:
I also think not counting drugs is artificially making the Archon look better - but that by itself isn't a drastic shift to the numbers, it's just sort of there and bugs my little anal retentive mind. That said, I'd rather see the re-worked numbers sans nets or plus Hydra/Flails rather than as stands as I feel it's not accurate.
Also, fair point. I feel the same way, usually I like to be as complete as possible... but there's just so many bells and whistles. Maybe just assume the dice gods were cruel and you rolled Hypex? Anyways, here goes!

Quote :
Archon (ago, CF) and 9 Bloodbrides (syreniser, RF x3) in Raider (FF) 347

Succi (ago) and 9 Bloodbrides (syreniser, RF x3) in Raider (FF) 332

vs MEQ
Quote :
Archon: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Succi: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Bloodbride unit: 3
(20 * 0.5 * 0.333 * 0.333) = 1.111
(12 * 0.5 * 0.333 [2+(4 * 0.333)=3.333]* 0.333) = 1.111
(5 * 0.5 * 0.5) = 1.25

Archon/BBs: (347/5) = 69.4
Succi/BBs: (332/5) = 66.4

vs GEQ
Quote :
Archon: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Succi: 2
(6 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 2.0

Bloodbride unit: 10
(20 * 0.667 * 0.5 * 0.667) = 4.444
(12 * 0.667 * 0.5 [4+(4 * 0.5)=6.0]* 0.667) = 4.0
(5 * 0.667 * 0.5) = 1.667

Archon/BBs: (347/12) = 28.917
Succi/BBs: (332/12) = 27.667

3 RFs couldn't tip the balance against MEQ? Meh. Um. Same squads, no upgrades save the syreniser, then...

Quote :
Archon (ago, CF) and 9 Bloodbrides (syreniser) in Raider (FF) 317

Succi (ago) and 9 Bloodbrides (syreniser) in Raider (FF) 302

vs MEQ
Quote :
Archon/BBs: (317/5) = 63.4
Succi/BBs: (302/5) = 60.4

vs GEQ
Quote :
Archon/BBs: (317/11) = 28.818
Succi/BBs: (302/11) = 27.455

It's a little better, but especially vs. MEQ seems underwhelming. Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 01:17

I have to agree with Thor, here. not including the benefits of drugs in the analysis of wyches will of course gimp them in comparison to incubi, since the drugs are included in their points cost. You might roll something worthless, sure, but 4 out of 6 (possibly 5) results directly affect the killyness of the wyches, so it's not that likely. Also, I think the hydra gauntlets might give a slightly better result than the razorflails, but I'm not sure.

But if you were to mathhammer out a Succubus plus 9 bloodbrides with 3 hydragauntlets with the reroll to wound drug (which is the best, if I'm not mistaken), I'm sure you might get a very different result. Just going with averages on the hydra gauntlet rolls, you could still pull a pretty wicked number of attacks.

I'd like to see some numbers for haemys and wracks crunched and added to this list. I'm sure they'd be pretty sub-par by comparison, but I'm a coven player at heart, and I just can't bear to let go of my creepy creations. =P Plus, who knows; Poison and furious charge together might actually make them comparable. Not to mention, with the lack of fleet, there's no reason not to shoot before charging (most of the time). Hooray for liquifiers!
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 01:23

@Raneth - you and I totally went math nuts today Wink

@EmoryNay - yeah, the drug bit is rough, because 4/6 of the drugs tend to have a direct modification of the Wyches in making them better at killing stuff, and that effect is exacerbated with certain weapon loadouts depending on the drug in question. That said, having done some of those spreads, I will say in Raneth's defense that it's tough and take a long time to do all the permutations. I am willing to bet that Wyches score much tighter versus Incubi than is being shown here.

I think I did the number crunch on Wracks once, they do pretty well in the grand scheme of things. We really ought to do up some common unit assessments in h2h to give people a better idea of what they're paying for.

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 01:30

Indeed. And possibly some for the uncommon ones. I still do love grotesques, even if they aren't as competitive. But this might be getting out of hand. Before we know it, we'll be working up numbers for every unit in the book. I just got done doing statistics homework, I'm not sure my brain can take much more maths. =P

It is kinda aggravating that wyches are so random, but then, the original numbers that Raneth ran for them in his first mathhammer post were what you could consider to be 'worst case scenario', with Shardnets and Impalers and Hypex drugs. I'd like to see some numbers for best case scenario too, to get an idea of the range.
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 14:35

@Thor665 wrote:

I think I did the number crunch on Wracks once, they do pretty well in the grand scheme of things. We really ought to do up some common unit assessments in h2h to give people a better idea of what they're paying for.

I see a sticky thread in the future Razz Will get right on it Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 15:39

Better you than me Wink

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 17:49

@EmoryNay wrote:
It is kinda aggravating that wyches are so random, but then, the original numbers that Raneth ran for them in his first mathhammer post were what you could consider to be 'worst case scenario', with Shardnets and Impalers and Hypex drugs. I'd like to see some numbers for best case scenario too, to get an idea of the range.
I would never put S&I on regular Wyches. Razz

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