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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 22 2011, 18:12

@Raneth wrote:
@EmoryNay wrote:
It is kinda aggravating that wyches are so random, but then, the original numbers that Raneth ran for them in his first mathhammer post were what you could consider to be 'worst case scenario', with Shardnets and Impalers and Hypex drugs. I'd like to see some numbers for best case scenario too, to get an idea of the range.
I would never put S&I on regular Wyches. Razz

I would. I think they serve their place, especially if you are dread hunting or toting around an IC (to make sure that rouge PF doesnt get too frisky) but other than that gauntlets are my prefered method of death dealing.
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EmoryNay
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 05:44

Oh, they have their place, of course. Most things do. But in the wyches' usual infantry-killing capacity, they aren't the best choice. Better to kill the other guy before he can attack rather than denying him attacks on his initiative.
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 07:33

I beg to differ. Shardnet and Impaler has good synergy with that WS4 and 4+ invulnerable save, making them an effective tarpit for things like dreads. I do run mine that way, with haywire grenades of course.

I wanna thresh infantry, I turn the Incubi loose on 'em...
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 11:54

Anyone used small squad of brides in venom?

Succubi(Agonsier) , 3 Brides + Syren(Agoniser). 232 point.

I wanted to use them in small points point games as quick intercept unit.
They are affordable and can mash 6-8 marines easily. They arent tarpit at all, but succubi clearly can kill any IC easily with her WS.

Do you think they will be effective ?
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 18:21

Depends on what you want from them. Succinisers average 2 MEQ kills when assaulting, the Syren has to make do with 4+ ToHit and 'only' 5 attacks meaning she'll be 'reliable' for only 1 kill. So you're pretty damn optimistic with those numbers. That said, this performance isn't bad at all and one of the few instances where I believe a good Drug roll will really pay off. And IC/MCs will indeed fear them greatly!

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 22:59

I think raneth is right. they are good to hunt sole ICs or MCs, but, they are neither 'affordable', nor can they mash 6-8 marines 'easiliy'.

The succubus equals around 2 wounds. (6*0.66*0.5=1.98)
The syren equals roughly 1 wound. (5*0.5*0.5=1.25)
The bloodbrides equals ca 0.5 wound. (4*0.5*0.33*0.33*3=0.66)
All in all that's around 3.5-4 wounds (1.98+1.25+0.66=3.89)
[assumed charge]

That is not even close to 6-8, and while this squad can kill a 5 man MEQ unit relatively reliable in to combat turns, they god damn should. We are looking at a 232pts HQ+Elites mini-deathstar, that is proud to kill a 90pts Troop choice.

Wyches and bloodbrides suffer all the same problem they can't hurt MEQs.
They produce only 0.05 wounds per attack on a MEQ model and so they rely on their leader's aggonisers to deal with them, and can't deal with numbers. Standard tactical marines deal 0.165 wounds per attack on wyches or Bloodbrides (0.0825 with FnP) so the Wyches only advantage is that they strike first.

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Last edited by Tiri Rana on Fri Nov 25 2011, 14:05; edited 1 time in total
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Marquis Vaulkhere
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 24 2011, 23:46


In my opinion she is a perfect leader for a MSU army. Cheap, effective and reliable; you throw her into a squad of wracks |I would as I have so many| and for 90 pts you have a very decent little killer.

HQ-Succubus of the Maidens malevolent-90pts.
Agonizer, haywire grenades.

I will definitely use her at some point.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 08:21

I cant do anything regarding Incubi here, too many I6 PW Marines.Its really sad when one of your most expensive units cant atack *any* unit in the opposing GK army.So Archon + Incubi is out.

Wracks obviously out of question too, their performance against meq and PW is lacking.

And i need mobile counter-charge.
The only decent counter-charge i have is either beasts, or wyches.


To Raneth.
Why does every mathhammer regarding Wyches i see always excludes drugs?)

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Tanhausen
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 12:47

IMO, you don't deal with Ini6+PW units in CC.

You shoot them to oblivion.

Pew pew pew goes the Venom

Pow pow pow goes the Cronos (yep, AP3)

Yum yum yum go the incubi at 12" from cronos

Auch auch auch go the non Ini6 units that incubi assault

(here is me hoping nobody throws me to the slave pits for this afwul post)

Good Hunting!
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 14:03

@Azdrubael wrote:
...Why does every mathhammer regarding Wyches i see always excludes drugs?)

Normaly I don't factor in drugs, because I don't buy wyches like 'if they get strength +1, they'll be able to hurt marines, yay!'. I just buy them for things they are good at, as is. If they get a good drug roll, they will do it better, that's it, but you got me interested.

I'll check the same situation, succubus/syren/bloodbride against marine.

Succubus:
Hypex (run 3D6) 6*0.66*0.5=1.98 << changes (obviously) nothing
Serpentin (+1WS) 6*0.66*0.5=1.98 << changes (obviously) nothing
Grave lotus (+1S) 6*0.66*0.5=1.98 << changes (obviously) nothing
Painbringer (re-roll) 6*0.66*(0.5+0.5*0.5)=2.97 << roughly +1 dead marine
Adrenalight (+1A) 7*0.66*0.5=2.31 << slight bonus (+0,33)
Splintermind (+1PT) 6*0.66*0.5=1.98 << changes (obviously) nothing

Syren:
Hypex (run 3D6) 5*0.5*0.5=1.25 << changes (obviously) nothing
Serpentin (+1WS) 5*0.66*0.5=1.65 << slight bonus (+0.4)
Grave lotus (+1S) 5*0.5*0.5=1.25 << changes (obviously) nothing
Painbringer (re-roll) 5*0.5*(0.5+0.5*0.5)=1.875 << slight bonus (+0.625)
Adrenalight (+1A) 6*0.5*0.5=1.5 << slight bonus (+0.25)
Splintermind (+1PT) 5*0.5*0.5=1.25 << changes (obviously) nothing

Bloodbride:
Hypex (run 3D6) 4*0.5*0.33*0.33=0.22 << changes (obviously) nothing
Serpentin (+1WS) 4*0.66*0.33*0.33=0.29 << slight bonus (+0.07)
Grave lotus (+1S) 4*0.5*0.5*0.33=0.33 << slight bonus (+0.11)
Painbringer (re-roll) 4*0.5*(0.33+0,67*0,33)*0.33*2=0.36 << slight bonus (+0.14)
Adrenalight (+1A) 5*0.5*0.33*0.33=0.27 << slight bonus (+0.05)
Splintermind (+1PT) 4*0.5*0.3*0.3*2=0.44 << changes (obviously) nothing

One thing more or less surprising is the small impact the +1 attack roll makes. It is the smallest bonus of all, but it gets more powerfull with less attacks, while all other get weaker.

The re-roll to wound gives the overall best result, but is just awesome for the succubus, who jumps from 2 to 3 dead marines, but this is bought by the fact, that she can't profit from either +1S or +1WS.

All in all I'd say, that the drugs are a neat bonus, but they don't give new abillities, just improve the ones already there.
The succubus is good at killing marines, the drugs make her even better. Bloodbrides are not so good. A good drug roll improves their abilities, but they don't become combat monsters miraculously. Without drugs you need 5 bloodbrides to kill one marine, after you need 'only' 3, no big deal.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 15:31

I would disagree somewhat on your pain drugs analysis. First off the succubus getting the +1 WS means WS4 is hitting her on 5s... that greatly increases her surivability. Same with the pain token, as that FNP helps when most infantry arent all toting around PWs... unless their GKs ofc... but still...

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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 15:39

I'd say Tiri Rana is more focused on how much pain he can put out than how much he can take.

Because... with our Ini values, if you don't put enough pain, it actually doesn't matter is you're facing PW weapon or not... (4++).
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 16:08

actually it does. Consider a succubus with the +1 ws drug and a pain token. Statistically your looking at MEQ without PW needing 28 attacks to deal 1 wound to her (19*.333*.667*.5*.5=1.053) considering she herself is doing about 2 wounds a turn, she could take on a tact squad by herself at that point.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 18:04

@Azdrubael wrote:
To Raneth.
Why does every mathhammer regarding Wyches i see always excludes drugs?)

1. The impact of drugs is often exaggerated. Tiri explained this already so I won't elaborate.
2. Baseline stats are most reliable to determine raw killing power with, since the bonus is random every battle.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 25 2011, 19:16

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
I would disagree somewhat on your pain drugs analysis. First off the succubus getting the +1 WS means WS4 is hitting her on 5s... that greatly increases her surivability. Same with the pain token, as that FNP helps when most infantry arent all toting around PWs... unless their GKs ofc... but still...

I just concentrated on the offensive part, because Azdrubael explicitly said that his unit wasn't intended as a tarpit.
Of course you're right, the succubus occupies a sweat spot, where the +1WS can actually help her on the defence, but she's afaik the only one, unless you count WS2. The defensive effect of one pain token aka feel no pain aren't insignificant, but I think everyone knows about it.

I still keep my opinion, that wyches' greatest advantage is hitting first, and to maximise, that the only way is to hit harder.
And even with FnP marines hit harder than wyches.
Additionally I think, that it is not possible to meaningfully mathhammer the defense, since the survival of the succubus will depend more on positioning, than on WS9.

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LKHERO
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PostSubject: Re: The Succubus   The Succubus - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 01 2011, 18:46

I like using a Succubus + Agonizer Smile
Pray for that +1 WS and things can get really effective!

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