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 Night Shields better than you think?

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PostSubject: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeMon May 16 2011, 14:26

I originally posted this on some other forums but it is better off here.

Night Shields

Here I present my ideas on Night Shields and why I think they are awesome for any vehicle that can take them.

So what does a night shield do? Quite simply it reduces your opponents weapons range by 6” not bad at first glance, but also consider that as well as reducing the weapons maximum range it also reduces rapid fire range (to 6”) and associated ranges like half range for melta (for example a meltagun becomes range 6” and 3” half distance for melta) this can make a big difference.

Applications of Night Shields are in protecting your weakly armoured vehicles (which are routinely threatened by infantry weapons) this works in three main ways; Long Range; Short Range; and Psychological.

Long Range - this is the most obvious application reducing your opponents range by 6” leaves opponents guessing at ranges they are unfamiliar with 36 becomes 30 and 48 becomes 42. Night shields do not effect your own weapons allowing you to sit at 31-36” and be 100% effective whereas an opponent with similar weapon ranges (a chimera being the obvious example) has to move to get within range cutting it’s firepower considerably (especially in the case of a chimera with embarked troops). Against 48” range weapons you can employ oblique attack angles with much more effectiveness (keeping distance from range 48” weapons whilst being within the firing range of your own weapons to your chosen target by coming in at an angle). To use these tactics effectively you have to get used to judging those aforementioned unfamiliar distances (which will serve you in good stead if you ever have to play against your fellow kabals).

Short Range - Here is where a lot of people (including myself at first) say that night shields are worthless this is completely untrue if anything they are more useful and easier to make effective use of at closer range. Against armies employing rapid fire weapons night shields are awesome you can use a variety of tricks to get close to enemy units and set up assaults from your vehicle. For example moving to within 18” of chosen unit whilst staying out of line of sight of all or the majority of a unit (turbo boosting into this position makes this a much safer option). Your opponent can take a small number of shots or can move in an attempt to get more shots, remember as soon as he moves he is forced into rapid fire which thanks to night shields is 6” , most of the time your opponent won’t have all his unit within range if any plus by moving closer he hampers any blast weapons he may consider throwing your way. By moving closer he also opens himself up to assault whether or not he destroys your vehicle. Against 24” weapons sit at 20” if he attempts to fire then next turn you have an easy assault (12” move 2” disembark 1-6” fleet and 6” charge).

Psychological - From the first time your opponent starts firing at your vehicles ask your opponents the range of their weapons even if you know(planting the seed) have them measure if there is any doubt. This effects your opponents game plan nobody likes declaring a shot to find they are out of range and by planting the seed your opponent will move when he doesn’t need to and not shoot at units he is unsure of being able to shoot. Every time he attempts to make a shot and fails your seed grows and his frustration and indecisiveness grows making it more likely he’ll make mistakes.

In conclusion night shield are a very effective defensive asset and psychological weapon in the Dark Eldar armoury.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeMon May 16 2011, 14:31

im on my battle report as well im horus_the_warmaster Very Happy havent been on their in ages tho so many forums so little time! Razz

as for night shields i completely agree their just awesome i have them on every vehicle Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeMon May 16 2011, 16:58

I always take nightshields. When used properly, they're absolutely worth the points. I'd dare say worth more than a flickerfield, in a case by case basis.

As far as using psychology against your opponent, it is a must, not to mention very Dark Eldar.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeMon May 16 2011, 18:32

As far as Night Shields go I stand by the mentality that my Raiders can gain saves through other mechanics. Gaining a reduction in range on your vehicle is impossible elsewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeTue May 17 2011, 01:37

Nightshields have there place.

On raiders that are heading up the field. And gaining a save by either cover of boosting.
Where it will help against Rapid Fire and Meltas

They have no place on Ravagers though simply because of this simple mathematical equation

Dark Lance = 36"
Lascannon, Missle Launcher, etc = 48"
Nightshields = -6"
48 - 6 = 42

If we are in range to fire, so are they.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeTue May 17 2011, 12:44

Baron Tordeck wrote:

They have no place on Ravagers though simply because of this simple mathematical equation

Dark Lance = 36"
Lascannon, Missle Launcher, etc = 48"
Nightshields = -6"
48 - 6 = 42

If we are in range to fire, so are they.

Yeah but multilaser, heavy bolter, bright lance, dark lance 36"
Tau Rifles 30"
Multi-melta, assault cannon 24"

Plus all this assumes a head to head as opposed to oblique approaches.

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PostSubject: Night shields are fantastic.   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeWed May 18 2011, 08:17

I always take them, but never waste points on flicker fields when possible (darn Venoms, they could have been 45 points. How cool would that have been?) I just don't see a 5+ save being very useful when I could be using tactics to gain 4+, or even stay out of range all together.

One other important part of the tactics of using them:
Take plenty of long range weapons (as if you weren't already!). Pinpoint which enemy units will be able to reach you and do damage, and focus fire them only until they can't shoot. You've just bought yourself a lot more shooting coming up next turn since you won't lose nearly as many units. It's about hanging back and whittling down the opposing army. If they start to get close, you can pounce on them now that they are somewhat weaker.

Also, remember that the jet fighter and bomber missiles are 48" in range. They can fire on a squad of long fangs and still be out of range of the SW heavy guns. There's no reason to move into range with your other guns in that sort of situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 02:47

I take FLickerfields on my Warrior's raiders, because I like to have them be able to shoot.
I hear a lot of "I'll always have a 4+ cover" when it comes to the FLickerfield vs. Nightshields dabte, but, as you can't Flat Out! and shoot and you can't be insured that you will be always be getting 'normal' cover saves I find the Flickerfields to be worth it, especially if you want yourRaiders to survive the returning fire that will probably be aimed at them.

Not to say I don't think Night shields don't have their place, I just prefer FLickerfields as they suit my play style better.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 03:25

5+ Invul vs 4+ cover,

hmmmmm

How many things ignore Invul saves? How bout Cover?

Can you get cover saves in combat? No, then yeah I'll spend the best 10 pts ever to get my 5+

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 10:09

I've not really ever used night shields, and I can only recall one game when I thought it would have saved my raiders. I do use flicker fields, sometimes they work, sometimes they dont.


Is it too much to buy both?


Generally I have 2 raiders full of wyches. These will move as fast as possible into assault range - however I do like to get some anti tank shots off, so will be moving 12" and firing, using cover. I've not had a game for about 3 months though - so Maybe I'll try some new things.

I have 4 people who I play against, and between us we have most armies. But more than likely I will face Orks, Bloodangels, Eldar, Darkangels and GreyKnights.

I normally find eldar the bloodiest match up. I'll give nightshields a try out and report how I get on.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 18:29

Tordeck, why are you putting your Raiders in close combat? tongue

Vegas, you are correct that it takes specific builds to be able to use night shields to their highest potential. But Warriors can contribute. Just take a squad of ten with either a DL or a SC, depending on whether you need more AT or AI.

I think the difference in NS vs FF is whether you play all-out offensively or more subtly. DE are a great army because they can do both styles (and more) extremely well without being obviously better in one or another.

Take both only if your strategy hinges on your vehicles and you've already fulfilled all the needs of your list.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 18:29

You only run with two raiders? In my 2000pt list, I have seven.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 18:33

I actually only take two Raiders as well. I use them to place WWPs and then their job is largely done. Everything else either comes in from the portal (Wyches, Talos) or is fast enough already (Reavers, Hellions, Scourges, Ravagers). DE don't need to Raider spam anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 18:35

Ah... I don't use the WWP that often. I only have one of the GW model and if I fielded them, I would want anywhere from two to three.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 18:41

Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Tordeck, why are you putting your Raiders in close combat? tongue

I think the difference in NS vs FF is whether you play all-out offensively or more subtly. DE are a great army because they can do both styles (and more) extremely well without being obviously better in one or another.

Take both only if your strategy hinges on your vehicles and you've already fulfilled all the needs of your list.

I don't think Tordeck puts them there on purpose, rather that they can be intercepted by assault units.

I like how you put it though. I tend to play all out aggressively (I like to think that it 'fits me' but its more due to my avarage at best generalship), so I prefer the Flickerfields as a rule, but I can very well see a more skilled general than me making a better use of Nightshields than I.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeFri May 20 2011, 04:21

Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Tordeck, why are you putting your Raiders in close combat? tongue

Generally its cuz I overextend and some MEQ with a fist decides he wants the KP

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeFri May 20 2011, 10:09

I only play at 1500pts generally sometimes 1000pt mini tournies. As such I've not yet used more than 2 raiders. I do plan to start including Venoms though. I think I have to re-write my army list to includ all the new tasty stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeFri May 20 2011, 10:50

After reading some epic BatReps, reading massive Mathhammer and drinking too much Mountain Dew, I must recant my previous statements about nightshields. Flickerfields for the win!
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeFri May 20 2011, 14:44

Sky Serpent wrote:
As far as Night Shields go I stand by the mentality that my Raiders can gain saves through other mechanics. Gaining a reduction in range on your vehicle is impossible elsewhere.

I support this thinking in its entirety.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 07:06

Well, I think Night Shields are fantastic, its not for the ranged weapons I bring them, its for the str 5-6 weapons, bolters, melta and rapid fire weapons. I only use NS on my "assault veichles" and they will be flat out most of the time and gain 4+ save, so wont need FF.

On the debate if FF is worth it. Comes down to how you play. I think they are worth it tbh. Might not save much, but when you make the save your oponent gets frustrated and easlier makes misstakes. same goes for when they fire at NS and dont reach. I have seen so many times that people have been put off by it and done misstakes afterwards.

Baron Tordeck wrote:
Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Tordeck, why are you putting your Raiders in close combat? tongue

Generally its cuz I overextend and some MEQ with a fist decides he wants the KP

Well, we should never end up in assault really. I have done so a few times, most due to deepstrike from oponnet and bad positioning by me. I play aggressive for the most part, as my mind set is to table the oponent and think of the objective in turn 5. But if I end up in CC i see it as a failure really :/

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 07:07

I've read countless mathhammer on this and once again I'm torn. I need to playtest this more to see what's worth the points. On paper, the night shields look dead sexy while the flickerfield leaves me wanting something better.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 07:34

Hashmal wrote:
Sky Serpent wrote:
As far as Night Shields go I stand by the mentality that my Raiders can gain saves through other mechanics. Gaining a reduction in range on your vehicle is impossible elsewhere.

I support this thinking in its entirety.

As do I.

You'll get a save on your raiders for going flat out first turn anyway (well, most of the time). Ravagers/venoms can gain a cover save from terrain quite easily, making the flickerfield utterly redundant.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 11:06

Xelkireth wrote:
I've read countless mathhammer on this and once again I'm torn. I need to playtest this more to see what's worth the points. On paper, the night shields look dead sexy while the flickerfield leaves me wanting something better.

Hehe totaly agree mathhamer doesnt do much when you actually play.

And for dropping FF to use Cover, sure a great option. But there is a problem tho.

First of 50% or more of the veichle needs to be in cover (the side they are shooting at ofc). And to actually move for the oponent so you arnt in cover really isnt that hard, since you need LOS aswell.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 15:38

Darklight wrote:
Xelkireth wrote:
I've read countless mathhammer on this and once again I'm torn. I need to playtest this more to see what's worth the points. On paper, the night shields look dead sexy while the flickerfield leaves me wanting something better.

Hehe totaly agree mathhamer doesnt do much when you actually play.

And for dropping FF to use Cover, sure a great option. But there is a problem tho.

First of 50% or more of the veichle needs to be in cover (the side they are shooting at ofc). And to actually move for the oponent so you arnt in cover really isnt that hard, since you need LOS aswell.

Well, it isn't that hard for Raiders in many instances. If you keep things in the front arc of your vehicle, it is fairly easy to cover up half of the facing since they are so svelte.

Mathhammer still applies, but all these things about using cover while advancing (very easy for Venoms) and so forth are what is really important. An in-your-face DE force won't get much use out of Night Shields on many of their vehicles, while a Ravager will get less out of Flicker Fields. In general, my rule of thumb is Flicker or nothing on up front vehicles, Night Shields or nothing on back fielders. The only exception for me would be the "fliers" since they cost so much I don't worry too much about tacking on the Flicker field.

Also note, I think a great use of Reavers on the first turn is to start behind a Raider or Ravager, move the Skimmer 12" if you really want to fire, then boost the Reavers ahead of it in such a way that they give it an obscured front. Situational, but creates a nasty nest of Cover Saves.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields better than you think?   Night Shields better than you think? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 01 2011, 21:41

a1elbow has it. Night shields do still work against a few things up close, but the purpose of their use needs to be to prevent as many enemy shots from reaching as possible. That means staying at long range. A list that maximizes NSs goes something like this:

6x[10 Warriors (DL) + Raider(NS)]
3x[3 Trueborn (2xSC) + Venom(SC, NS)]
Razorwing (SC, NS)
2x[Ravager(NS)]

That's the core of a 2k list with about 100 pts left over. I'd probably use them on a Haemonculus with hexrifle and some shock prows, but it's not that important. What is important is that you have 20 lance shots firing at up to 15 targets, all at 36" range. Combine that with 78 splinter shots plus 4 S6 large blasts at the same range or beyond, and you can happily sit back and pick off any enemy guns that would still reach you. It forces the opponent to move his forces to you under heavy fire while not being able to reduce your forces by much at all for at least a couple turns. And don't forget that you have 114 rapid fire shots that you can use later in the game, when the enemy does get close.

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