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 Lelith and her retinue

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 21:58

So she has a ridiculous stat line and a super amount of attacks that ignore all normal armour saves which as we know is rare in 6th edition and in our codex.
However her major let down is her S3 meaning she kills MEQs on a 5+. Kind of nullifies her sheer quantity of attacks doesn't it.

What about +1S from FS I head you say? Exactly. Not a revolutionary idea I'm sure but has anyone actually tried her with a retinue of 8 wracks + Heami or 4 Grots + Heami in a Raider. On paper it looks great. Around 10-12 S4 attacks on the charge? Yes please. Majority T4 (T5 with Grots)? Yes please. A 78% chance of ignoring almost all wounds in CC (3++ and FNP). Yes please!
On the charge she'll get 3.63 kills against MEQ and 5.28 kills against GEQ if I'm not mistaken. Then there are the kills from the retinue so a good chance of combat victory. I reckon often on assault turn 2 against MEQ which is ideal so we don't suffer around of shooting before moving on.

Thoughts?
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 23:54

But a Succubus with an Agoniser gets 2 kills against MEQ for less than half the points (and that's not even including Combat Drugs), and Lelith will still lose to most enemy ICs. Still doesn't seem worth it. Sure she's more survivable... but we could just get two Succubi and have points to spare if that's a worry.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 01:10

But 2 succubi is both hq slots. Lelith is actually daily survivable now that you remove in base to base, then with 2" along with the -1 attack, 3++ and WS9

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wittykid
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 02:19

Another little tidbit about Lelith that makes her really good is all her attacks ignore armour saves which includes her grenades or if for whatever reason she is manning a quad gun or such you have a BS 9 armour ignoring shot or blast. BS 9 armour ignoring plasma grenades? Yes Please

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 06:35

3 wracks in Venom. They will underestimate her. =)

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Kinnay
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 07:36

I'm pretty sure only her CC attacks count as armour ignoring. Do people seriously play otherwise?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 10:53

@Kinnay wrote:
I'm pretty sure only her CC attacks count as armour ignoring. Do people seriously play otherwise?

This is another of those silly RAW v RAI arguments. Her codex entry says "Her attacks ignore armour saves" and some people take that to mean all attacks, which is indeed correct on a strict reading of the rules. I'm fairly sure that it is intended to be only her melee attacks though. Bear in mind that she had no shooting attacks of her own in 5th as you could not attack with Plasma Grenades and there were no (or very few) weapon emplacement for her to use. Expect a FAQ at some point.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 11:08

Until then though *malicious laughter*

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 12:17

I like the three wracks in a venom idea. Or even 3 wracks and a Haemon. It'll be quite cheap. I think she'd be great in challenges. Btw, if she is in a unit with two PTs and charged and is then challenged she still benefits from FS +1S right?

I think I'll only employ that harsh and literal rule about the grenades if my opponent presents a case for some other stupid but literally correct rule. Razz
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 13:52

I suppose you could use a far seer and doom a target so she can wound it

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 15:00

I have tried the 4 Grots + haemie with Lelith before, and it worked wonders. The one problem is how many point it actually comes down to, and how much fire it will draw. Good thing about this build is the amount of damage they can take as well (being their average Toughness is 5). If I were to use Lelith, this is the only way I would field her.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 20:51

I think i could see taking her in a seer council with a doom farseer.
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wittykid
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 23:48

I don't see why people think the Lelith ignoring armour saves is a silly RAW argument because in the fluff of the rule it explains the reason she ignores armour saves is because she lands her hits so accurate she always gets a chink in the enemy's armour. The fact that she can do that with shooting type attacks too isn't that outrageous to me because she is after all BS 9 and the most skilled wych in Commoragh. I really like the grot idea though, that sounds like a whole lot of fun to do, lead with the haemie with enough grots in b2b to LOS wounds around and grots have some pretty nasty attacks too

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 02:01

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
I have tried the 4 Grots + haemie with Lelith before, and it worked wonders. The one problem is how many point it actually comes down to, and how much fire it will draw. Good thing about this build is the amount of damage they can take as well (being their average Toughness is 5). If I were to use Lelith, this is the only way I would field her.

I'm glad to see someone has tried this. Yes I can see it drawing a lot of fire but then it is a major distraction from some of our other nasties. Very Happy I would really love to try this combo. No fleet is a problem but other than that it's a solid match. One of our only units that won't perish upon being popped out of a transport just from the explosion!

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I think i could see taking her in a seer council with a doom farseer.

Yea this could be an incredibly nasty combo but they'd have to foot slog wouldn't they?
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 12:39

Lelith is my next DE IC to be painted. I'll probably use her in any of my three <wych+haemi> squads on raiders, and as my Warlord (-Wych cult+Coven- Raid army).

She has enough survivability (3++/4++ and LoS!), gives a lot of offensive (and defensive--> Duels and also Shardnet) power to the wych unit, which will tie-up and erase enemy units with ease. If I combine the 3 wych units against an enemy flank, they will make lots of pain...

Oh, and I'll probably roll for Personal Traits. Make her scoring or victory point maker by killing characters is invaluable.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 07:53

[/quote]

Yea this could be an incredibly nasty combo but they'd have to foot slog wouldn't they?
[/quote]
Yeah they would. The FAQ for the eldar said that fortune only applyed to eldar UNITS(I think?). If she joins a seercouncil she is still part of an eldar unit so she geets the rerollable 4++ save and a 2+ look out sir save also so foot slogging shouldn't be a problem since this unit can take las cannons to the face and still keep coming. Even if she doesn't get the fortune save just put her in the back and let the warlocks be her meat shields. alien
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Black Death
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 09:14

This will sound a bit funny but my best with Lelith has been with 8 Blood Brides and a Syren/ 3 hydra gauntlets in a raider. Once they get to the enemy, well bloodshed ensued. Of course I took 2 raiders loaded with wyches to make singling Lelith and co a big decision for my opponents. Getting lucky with the CC drug roll helps too.

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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 14:40

I've been thinking of Lelith+ whatever unit in combination with the new Chaos Codex as allies. The Warptalons are supposed to cause a blind effect when they deepstrike in, that maximizes her attacks.
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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 16:10

@xzandrate wrote:
I've been thinking of Lelith+ whatever unit in combination with the new Chaos Codex as allies. The Warptalons are supposed to cause a blind effect when they deepstrike in, that maximizes her attacks.

I've not read the new Chaos Codex. Does this blind effect reduce WS? And does anything that reduce weapon skill have an effect on her bonus attacks or is it always against the enemy's stat line?
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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith and her retinue   Lelith and her retinue I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 05 2012, 19:28

Blind is a USR from the main rulebook. If you are hit by a weapon that has the blind special rule, you take an initiative test or your your WS and BS are reduced to 1. The rules for Lelith don't specify, but I'd be inclined to believe it is modified statline.

There are a few other ways to get blind onto enemies, but since they seem like a decent enough unit anyhow, I figure the Warptalons could do the job nicely.
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