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 Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?

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MordredBloodyhand
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PostSubject: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 09:52

I am planning to run 8 Incubi with my Archon and Haemonculi in a raider. Is the upgrade to a Klaivex worth the points. I am very much a noob with the Dark Eldar having just bought the army this past weekend!
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 10:28

probably not tbh, all those AP2 attacks and 2 IC's should mean you'll kill whatever you're up against without needing the extra attack/gear from a klaivex.
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 13:50

8 Incubi with an Archon and Haemi is very much fine without the Klaivex. IMHO the Klaivex is a waste of points unless you are trying to add punch to a small unit in a Venom where you can only fit 5 models. Even then, I usually don't waste the points.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 14:05

Klaivex are often overlooked. Unless you plan on always running a character with ld9 or higher with them I would add him just the the boost to ld. He will also murder most power fist toting sarges/ priests/ etc

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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 14:59

I have one in the list I'm building right now - his extra point of Init means that he'll be making his AP2 swings before almost anything except his fellow pointy-ears. Helps keep monster ICs honest.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 15:16

the only real reason to ever take a klavex is A: You want to be able to accept challenges so your Archon can go crazy on a unit, or B: You want to boost the leadership of the unit because of no characters what so ever. Normally another Incubi is a way to go though

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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 16:44

You should always take a Klaivex in 6th ed if you have an Archon in the unit.

1. the above mentioned Archon goes crazy on a unit while Klaivex duels IC
2. BRB wounds are allocated to the closest models to your models at that initiative step, being the Klaivex is the somewhat unique in this it allows him to snipe his target (if you move him very carefully) somewhat like a weaker version of Dhrazar's darting strike but for 200 less points.
3. You may want to ditch your Haemy in the like the raider and just take the pain token (because the Haemy is not fleet), if you do this Your Archon is your only Character and that makes your options limited if you are going into a scenario where you don't want your Archon to be challenged, since refusing just eliminates his attacks, so your Klaivex can step in.

Just imagine a Drago wing, you don't want your Archon to go against Drago in the first round of combat you'd rather him take down some pallies and maybe lose a wound or two to your Klaivex, then duel your Archon. After all your dark eldar, you want to fight your opponent while hes at his best? or do you want to throw some painfull road blocks in his way and then rip the flesh from his bones?


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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 18:20

I converted a Klaivex from one of my Incubi when the Klaives were FAQ:ed as ap3 to get that ap2 Demiklaives.

But I don't regret converting him now when the new FAQ is out, I now use him in challanges and to generally murder my opponent. I even run him with the onslaught ability.

I know, it's a bit pricey but that extra punch makes my unit of 5 even more punchy and thanks to onslaught, even more punchy.
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MordredBloodyhand
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 23:25

OK thanks for the replies people...now I am in two minds again!....I shall think about it...playing my first game with DE tonight so I will try the Klaivex and go from there...
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 21:02

I like running one with a blood stone. It's a template weapon on a character which allows you to look out sir to protect it. Most people don't like the blood stone since it's only strength 3, but you only need to kill one marine to make its points back. Plus combining the PGL with the blood stone overwatching makes this unit tough to assault.
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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 16:59

@Seshiru wrote:
You should always take a Klaivex in 6th ed if you have an Archon in the unit.

2. BRB wounds are allocated to the closest models to your models at that initiative step, being the Klaivex is the somewhat unique in this it allows him to snipe his target (if you move him very carefully) somewhat like a weaker version of Dhrazar's darting strike but for 200 less points.


Sorry can you explain this step as I really don't get what you mean? I thought if you duel you'll only be able to kill that model. If you accept the challenge with the Klaivex you have to move the models into B2B contact anyway so I don't see where this sniping from careful movement comes in. :/

Unless you mean he can snipe if he isn't challenged and you place him next to the power first serg when you charge in...?
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 19:11

Yep, in that case I was referring to the tactical possibilities from having mixed initiative values outside of challenges
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 19:33

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I like running one with a blood stone. It's a template weapon on a character which allows you to look out sir to protect it. Most people don't like the blood stone since it's only strength 3, but you only need to kill one marine to make its points back. Plus combining the PGL with the blood stone overwatching makes this unit tough to assault.

Im not going to lie this is actually an interesting idea. Ive thrown this piece of wargear away as useless since I first saw it in 5th, but this is true that 6th gives it new life, and with LoS, he is able to actually stay up in front and use it effectively. Although I dont think I would always stick his neck out in front, as a 4+ isnt hard to fail... but its worth try and must be thrown on the list of my stuff to be playtested again.

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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 07:11

I have to echo the use of the Bloodstone being a big asset based on my experience using it in a few Killteam game on Monday.

It changes the "rules" of the unit, giving them Overwatch and lets them "Shoot" before assaulting.

I like it much and will likely not run a Klavex without it.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 08:22

If anything, the blood stone gives you the option to run incubi without an archon and PGL. Hmmm... interesting. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 10:45

@Mushkilla wrote:
If anything, the blood stone gives you the option to run incubi without an archon and PGL. Hmmm... interesting. Smile

It's still risky to assault through cover without a PGL.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 10:48

@Mushkilla wrote:
If anything, the blood stone gives you the option to run incubi without an archon and PGL. Hmmm... interesting. Smile

Although it seems fluffy, I still haven't read any rule that states that a flamer ignores the effect of charging through cover... or am I wrong?

(now the topic)

Before 6th, the Klaivex didn't seem so good to me... I had to pay a lot of points for him, because I won't get him without all his options (well, all of them except for Murderous Assault). But now, with 6th (and the LOVELY DE codex FAQ from GW), his power in duels is pure gold, specially if you look at his stats (WS, I, and Murderous Assault rule, too bad that it doesn't work with plain Characters).

What does the Klaivex give?
-A duelist: WS 6 and I6 is pure gold (hits first and at 3+ against almost all space marines, except for the Captains and above in the HQ section. In the case of Orks you also hit at 3+ unless against Ghazkull or Bosses with the Whaaagh!! banner in his unit).
-Demiklaives: I'd use S5 AP2 ALL the time (well, with FC i'd use the +2A option against GEQs), because +1S in exchange of -1A is fair enough.
-Massacre: not that necessary. But I like it when I overkill my opponent Deathstars with 10 Incubi and extra attacks. Also, I haven't paired my Eldar Farseers with Incubi... that could be AWESOME... there will be 20 man Chaos Space Marines Units ? Then my Incubi will taste their unholy blood. And my Klaivex will lead them.
-Blood Stone: AP3: good S3: bad... 1/3 of MEQs touched by the template will die. Only if I could use Raider Shock Prows in the same turn that Incubi disembark, like in 5th... I prefer Liquifer guns

Talking of Liquifer Guns... A klaivex with all the options costs 75 points. If you get 1 heami, with LG and venom blade is 65 points... and gives FnP to this unit... Would you get this instead????

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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 10:57

@Eldur wrote:

Although it seems fluffy, I still haven't read any rule that states that a flamer ignores the effect of charging through cover... or am I wrong?

I never said it did. All the bloodstone does is let you soften up units in cover, so if you have to charge them you will take less casualties.

As for demi-klaives they are not worth it, if you want to kill characters get the power that gives you preferred enemy, it's cheaper the the demi-klaives and more effective (re-rolling 1s to hit and wound is awesome). Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 11:04

@Eldur wrote:

Talking of Liquifer Guns... A klaivex with all the options costs 75 points. If you get 1 heami, with LG and venom blade is 65 points... and gives FnP to this unit... Would you get this instead????

I'd say this is favourable although I probably wouldn't even take the VB to keep him cheap. 70points and you can have a Haemon w/LFG and a Klaivex. He's still an incubus with +1WS, A, I and LD which bolsters the squad. He'll be nasty with just his normal weapon if you can't spare the points for the DK (which are awesome). He'll be able to 'snipe' or accept the challenge of the PF serg and the Hameon can hit the unit with a S4 AP3 template 50% of the time whilst providing FNP to the incubi (getting them one dead unit closer to having FC) and drawing the overwatch fire as well.

@Mushkilla wrote:
[
As for demi-klaives they are not worth it, if you want to kill characters get the power that gives you preferred enemy, it's cheaper the the demi-klaives and more effective (re-rolling 1s to hit and wound is awesome). Smile

Interesting idea, has anyone punched out the mathhammer for this? Of course it is half the cost but can't be used all the time. Also any characters with an invulnerable save with murder us in a challenge. I mainly use it for the serg or if I have an IC I wan to let rip on the unit.

Please use the edit button in future. Thanks. - Mush
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 12:33

Klaivex (Klaive, Preferred enemy, charging) against WS<5 and T4
4 attacks-->2/3+(2/3*1/6) to hit= 3.11 hits
--> 1/2+(1/2*1/6) to wound= 1.81 wounds (no normal saves)
With Massacre (6s to wound = +1 attack)
--> 3.11 hits*1/6= 0.52 additional attacks --> +0.24 wounds --> a total of 2.05 wounds

Klaivex (+2S Demiklaives, Preferred enemy, charching), same opponent
4 attacks-->2/3+(2/3*1/6) to hit= 3.11 hits
--> 2/3+(2/3*1/6) to wound= 2.41 wounds (no normal saves)
With Massacre (6s to wound = +1 attack)
--> 3.11 hits*1/6= 0.52 additional attacks --> + 0.31 wounds --> a total of 2.72 wounds

Demiklaives and no Preferred enemy...
4 attacks-->2/3 to hit= 2.66 hits
--> 2/3t o wound= 1.77 wounds (no normal saves)
With Massacre (6s to wound = +1 attack)
--> 2.66 hits*1/6= 0.44 additional attacks --> + 0.20 wounds --> a total of 1.97 wounds

If you want a cheap option, preferred enemy is only a bit better (in fact, almost equal) than taking Demiklaives, but remember that it only works against ICs... so I would take the weapon upgrade in any case.
With both of them and the second power, the Klaivex can kill an IC in one round (~3 wounds), if we don't count invulnerable saves, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 13:10

@mug7703 wrote:
I mainly use it for the serg or if I have an IC I wan to let rip on the unit.

Personally I don't think you need any upgrades if you want to kill squad leaders, a Klaivex without any upgrades will do the job just fine. Fifteen points for +1WS, +1A, +1I, +1LD and the ability to challenge, and snipe thanks to the different initiative steps, makes the Klaivex upgrade worth considering. But I personally find it hard to justify any of the other upgrades.

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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 13:34

Yea I actually meant to say 'him' not it. Although I agree just the basic upgrade is optimal for most cases.
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 15:21

@mug7703 wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
You should always take a Klaivex in 6th ed if you have an Archon in the unit.

2. BRB wounds are allocated to the closest models to your models at that initiative step, being the Klaivex is the somewhat unique in this it allows him to snipe his target (if you move him very carefully) somewhat like a weaker version of Dhrazar's darting strike but for 200 less points.


Sorry can you explain this step as I really don't get what you mean? I thought if you duel you'll only be able to kill that model. If you accept the challenge with the Klaivex you have to move the models into B2B contact anyway so I don't see where this sniping from careful movement comes in. :/

Unless you mean he can snipe if he isn't challenged and you place him next to the power first serg when you charge in...?

Because the Klaivex is acting at a higher initiative step, if you can place him in base to base with a single model then when his attacks and wounds are calculated that model you are in base to base with HAS to have the wounds allocated to them first. So if this is a special weapon/gear model, you can effectively snipe them out.
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 16:07

Thank you. Yea that's a useful tactic.
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PostSubject: Re: Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi?   Should I take a Klaivex in my Incubi? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 18:52

Yes, the bloodstone is only Str 3, but it is always ap3. With the LG you wound on 4s, but only have a 50% chance ignore 3+ armor saves. If you average it out the bloodstone should still be better vs MEQ I think ( I could very well be wrong though.) Heck take both a Haemy with LG and a Klaivex with a bloodstone for maximum flaming fun.
My basic point was that the bloodstone it the best upgrade on the Klaivex and gives the unit some more killing power on both D and on the charge without taking up a FoC slot like the Haemy does.
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