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 The Tempest Super Sniper

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 09:51

So I was flicking through the Edlar codex and stumbled across the much maligned Dark Reaper entry. It was then that I noticed the Tempest Launcher: range 36" S4 AP3 heavy 2, blast, barrage.

Now barrage weapons have some nice features:

-You can fire at things you can't see, which can be helpful in certain situations.
-Pinning, not grate but fantastic when it works.
-Multiple barrage, means your shots always cluster.
-When determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre (this also applies to cover).

What the last point means is, if you roll a hit and place the blast marker over a marine with a melta gun, and the blast hits two other marines, for a total of 3 hits, and say two wounds, then you keep allocating wounds to the meltagun marine until he passes all his save or dies (this is why griffon mortars are one of the best snipers in the game). The tempest is S4 and AP3 making it reasonable against marines, add crack shot and it will ignore all cover (Area terrain and jink included) and re-roll to wound making it even more lethal. This effectively gives you a very lethal and accurate sniper.

That being said Dark Reapers are not the cheapest choice and a minimum unit like this will cost:

3 reapers, exarch, temperst, crack shot - 147

This however is a reasonable anti MEQ unit, and also mean you avoid split the rolls of the reapers (like when you equip the exarch with a EML).

Thoughts?

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 11:05

totally static, you cant fire blast weapons as snap shots.
expensive.
as easy to kill as 3 normal marines.
meh.
played craftworlders before DE and they havent gotten any better in 6th tbh,
best way to use reapers is as a firebase unit, in a pre-arranged game using battle missions where you know your deployment type and enemy before-hand. they murder marines but wont dint a guard blob squad so only useful for tailored lists in my experience.

if you want super snipers, x10 pathfinders with guide/doomseer is the way to go.
double rending precision shots with re-rolls is pretty decent. and they're scoring, and can move +fire, outflank and infiltrate.
watch out for flame though!!!
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 13:42

Quote :
-You can fire at things you can't see, which can be helpful in certain situations.
-Pinning, not grate but fantastic when it works.
-Multiple barrage, means your shots always cluster.
-When determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre (this also applies to cover).

Only last thing has changed since 5th. I used this squad with this same load out in 5th, it was shiny but was did some damage. Also i ran Eldrad in the list, so i always have a good position for them.

THis sniping do have potential.

One thing that bothers me, why care with them in DE army? Only decent idea is to man Quad-Gun with this squad.



Quote :
if you want super snipers, x10 pathfinders with guide/doomseer is the way to go.
Well you have to roll 6th on to hit with them, and this squad can snipe just by hitting with Exarch Launcher. Not saying who's better, just pointing clear difference.
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 13:47

tbh mate, i'd take neither. static units arent that hot for armies that thrive on speed and mobility.
just seems to me if you want snipers, take a sniper unit. its more shots, higher chance of rending and precision shooting with re-rolls, has more deployment options, more wounds, better cover saves and is scoring, yeah it costs more, but you're taking allies anyway so will need a troops choice as well as your reapers.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 13:49

I wont take neither in DE army.

I will try try reapers in CE army at 750 points, they do seems hot there.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 01 2012, 19:30

I would prefer the D-cannon for sniping. With the changes to artillery rules the support platforms got a lot more durable, being effectively 3 wounded t7 models (the platform has 2 wounds and you can sacrifice one of the crewmembers without impairing its function) instead of av10 vehicles with 1 hullpoint. They also cost 50 points per platforms and have ap2, wound anything on 2+ (and instakill on 6s) blast weapon that penetrates anything on 5+.

Altho Reapers have the added utility of being able to man the defence line. The Exarch's fast shot works when he fires the gun emplacement, allowing you to double the lascannon's shots.

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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 12:49

I was not making any attempt to say this was the new end all be all. I was merely exploring barrage weapons we have access to. In the case of reapers it allows them to bring something nothing else in the eldar codex can bring accurate barrage sniping. The D-Cannon is another fine example, all be it less accurate.

I disagree with the tempest being useless against guard blobs, it can snipe squad leaders, commissars, rune priest or whatever else is boosting the squad, and it forces a pinning test, not bad when you have just killed the main source of leadership of the squad.

If you have played against or seen someone play against Griffon Mortars, you will realise what I mean. Say a raider carrying 9 wyches and an Archon with a clone field get shot down, only three die in the explosion. The Griffon mortar a very accurate(get's to re-roll to hit) S6 AP4 template lands on target centred on the archon and hitting all the wyches. For arguments sake the blast inflicts 6 wounds, the archon now need to pass 6 look out sirs rolls or be insta killed.

The idea of this post was to get people to think outside the box. Yes reapers are expensive but what is the value of being able to reliable remove models from a squad? Will it make them worth their, points probably not, but it's a new options and worth experimenting with. Especially with the shift towards more infantry heavy armies.

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 15:38

not really, he gets to roll 6 look out sirs, then 6 invulnerable saves. the look out sir only allocates a hit, not a wound.
if he fails an invul, he is then insta-killed. it'll wipe out your wyches but the archon should survive it.
i dunno, its a lot of points for 3 guys with marine saves. you ever had any difficulty in killing 3 marines? i havent.
i get what you're trying to do mate, thinking outside the box is great. but tbh, CE are so old and creaky, you're really only wanting the farseer, jetbikes, snipers and war walkers (artillery potentially). pretty much everything else in the book we do better and/or cheaper (this is coming from a long time CE player btw)
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 15:43

Nightspinner is also great.

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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 16:38

@csjarrat wrote:
not really, he gets to roll 6 look out sirs, then 6 invulnerable saves.

I said clone field not shadow field. A succubus would be another example of a character that is vulnerable to barrage sniping.

@csjarrat wrote:

the look out sir only allocates a hit, not a wound.

You don't allocate hits, you allocate wounds before saving throws are made in a mixed unit.

@csjarrat wrote:

i dunno, its a lot of points for 3 guys with marine saves. you ever had any difficulty in killing 3 marines? i havent.

Again the topic was using reapers as an example. To encourage discussion.

@Azdrubael wrote:
Nightspinner is also great.

You are a genius, it's mobile, more survivable, large blast, rending, slows your opponent, and twin linked and therefore more accurate. All this for less to boot! This is the Eldar equivalent of the Griffon mortar! Now we are on to something. Smile


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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 22:32

I'd say sniping out squad leaders and speacial weapon bearers is worth a bit extra if you can put it in a unit that has the longevity to make use of the ability. The Nightspinner sounds particularly broken for its points. For the same cost of a Ravager with night shields, you get better armor and a gun that can cause a lot of ID wounds with rending on a T3 model buried in a squad. Plus no cover saves unless in area terrain, plus pinning test, at double the range, no line of sight needed. It's pretty good against MEQ too, since all you're losing is the ID and it still wounds on 2+.

But let's be honest here. Is anybody else a little bit bothered that barrage can do this? When I think of barrage weaponry, the first thing that pops into my head is certainly not precision accuracy, and certainly not sniping. I don't think these weapons were meant to be able to do this, and it seems a bit unsportsmanlike to use.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 22:50

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Plus no cover saves unless in area terrain, plus pinning test, at double the range, no line of sight needed.

And forces dangerous/difficult terrain tests if the unit moves (this effect lasts until the unit moves! So no escaping it).

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:

But let's be honest here. Is anybody else a little bit bothered that barrage can do this? When I think of barrage weaponry, the first thing that pops into my head is certainly not precision accuracy, and certainly not sniping. I don't think these weapons were meant to be able to do this, and it seems a bit unsportsmanlike to use.

Yes, it's very silly, if they had just kept it the same as regular blast weapons, it would not have been so ridiculous. Hell a Griffon/Night Spinner is a better snipers than a vindicare assassin!

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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 12:26

There's a lot of discussion on the "barrage sniping" subject. But from my point of view it's not that serious.

3 reasons for that:

1: Characters and ICs have the " Look out sir!" save
2: If you move the important models to the front, the edges or the back of the unit, the opponent barrage weapons will lose their offensive potential if they want to snipe them. (use space between models, also)
3: Barrage weapons are blast so they can't Snap Shot. Stun or Shake the vehicle carrying them.

In the case of the Tempest Launcher Dark Reaper Exarch, his sniping power is better due to number 3, because the enemy can only Pin him (or charge him) in order to avoid his shooting. Also, he has a multiple barrage weapon, so number 2 is attenuated. Not to mention Crack shot, which makes him deadly against MEQs, both on foot and bikers. Come and get me, Ravenwing!



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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 14:58

Don't forget to factor in the part where barrage doesn't minus BS for scatter so if you like to be in your opponents face it can go very bad for you

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PostSubject: Re: The Tempest Super Sniper   The Tempest Super Sniper I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 03 2012, 15:53

@Seshiru wrote:
Don't forget to factor in the part where barrage doesn't minus BS for scatter so if you like to be in your opponents face it can go very bad for you

Only if you fire indirect (i.e can't trace LoS on the target). Smile

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