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 MSU in 6th edition

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Mushkilla
wolffgard
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wolffgard
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PostSubject: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 28 2012, 07:34

Greeting fellow Generals!

Some time ago I posted several army lists, and tried to start a discussion on the tactical forum, regarding DE and SMU in 6th edition. In this post I would like to share my experience hoping that someone would benefit from it☺

THE ARMY
This was a 1.750p tournament using the scenarios in the new rulebook, with some alterations (fixed number of objects, night fight in 3 out of 5 scenarios, etc).

The army I used consisted of:

Arcon; with Shadow field, Blaster and Agonizer
2 X 5 Wyches with Haywire grenades in Raiders with Dark Lance
2 X 5 Warriors with Blasters in Raider with Dark Lance
2 X 5 Warriors with 1 Blaster and 1 Shredder in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
3 X 4 Blasterborne in Venom with extra Splinter Cannon
2 X Ravager with Dark Lance
1 X Razorwing with Dark Lance, Splinter Cannon, Shadow field and Flicker field

The battles

First up were a versatile Necron Army, Destroyers, Barges, Chariot, Transport, Stalkers, Wariors and Immortals etc. Night fight. I deployed more than 36” away, only reserve was the Razorwing. Crappy dice turn one and two. But the Venoms – my god! 2 units of Destroyers gone and Immortals severely damaged. By turn three the Wyches destroyed the Chariot, a Stalker, and the Blasterborn had destroyed heavy transports. By turn 5 I had taken most of the primary, secondary and tertiary objectives, fore a solid victory.

Game 2 I faced a Dark Eldar MSU list with a nasty Eldar allied, with the Knight Wing, 2 X Bikes with War Lock and Far Seer. The beast units with the Baron and bikes where a real tar pit, and the impressive cover save that the Knight Wing enjoys turned out to be very difficult to beat. My uponant was a better general than me. I lost, but not by “huge” margin.

Game 3 I faced a Grey Knight army. Nightfight. Same tactics as game 1 (all in). My massed Lance fire against Dreadnoughts and Venom fire against troops took out 1/3 of the deployed part of the army turn one. Then Dark Lances focused fire on Razorbacks and the Venoms and Blasterborne on Terminators (10). Brutal. I was lucky that the Stormraven arrived turn three managing to gunning it down with Dark Lances (snap shots). Picking one unit a time I tabled my opponent by turn 6.

Game 4 I faced Tyranids. I am an old Tyranid player, but this list was hard to cope with. Probably the best way to go these days with Nids, an al out infantry army. 50 Genestealers infiltrated in front of my line (al inn), backed by 3 X 3 Hive Guard and 2 Tervigons. I made a big mistake, I had elected to go second, thinking he would spread his force facing the to objectives. Having had bad experience from bad dice roll, I used speed, effectively redeploying my army, going fore the Tyranid home objective, killing his Synapse and wiping out the units lurking around. He got “first blood” but otherwise, a draw.

Game 5 I faced Grey Knights once more. Nightfight. Same tactics – all in. Turn one the Venoms shot down the Quad Gun and a Dread Knight with “jump” and “flamer”. Two turns of softening up terminators etc, and then moved in on all 5 objectives (killing and blowing up all scoring units – Big Guns never tire etc). He had one immobilised Dreadnought with one Autocannon left by turn 6!

Puh! 5 grate games against 5 very pleasant opponents. Most armies used allies. The winner played a Necron army with 6 flyers… I ended as number 2, and to sugar coat it I won best painted☺

Hen sight; I would drop the Razorwing (entered X 2 turn on turn 4 and was shot down once) for an extra Ravager (killy from turn one). I would also skip the Agonizer and the Blasters in the 5 man Warrior Squads and either go for Night Shields ore try to by some Scourges with 2 X Splinter Cannons (Splinter cannons are brutal when used an mass). It was not the Blasterborn who won my games (of course they had a impact on how my opponents played – and therefore possibly had an impact), but it was the Dark Lances and Venoms (Splinter Cannons) who won the day.

Hope this gives value to other DE players using or considering using MSU lists.

Cheers.
EagleWolff
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 28 2012, 09:15

Nice write up thanks for sharing. MSU definitely has a lot of advantages this edition.

For the sake of discussion I will present a small counter argument:

Dark eldar have never been very good at holding objectives. So one way of wining games is to try and contest your opponents objective. In 6th secondary objective have become quite important, so adopting a strategy to maximise the advantage they present is not a bad idea. By taking larger squads you minimise you chance of giving away first blood, victory points in (certain missions, eg: the scouring) and have more survivable units to let you contest objective and get line breaker more reliably.

There are flaws to this argument, such as: how do you minimise the chance of raider/venoms giving up first blood etc. But I thought I would mention it to get a good discussion going.

Well done in the tournament! Very Happy

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wolffgard
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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 28 2012, 09:40

Good arguments Mushkilla!

During my practise games before the tournament I found the Night Fight / Strategic Traits (Night Fight) valuable. I often let the uponent go first (last turn disembariking). Then I deliberately deploy so that my opponent have a very hard time reaching my lines turn one. If I must choose to set something in reserve, I only deploy long-range firepower. With focused fire from 10+ Lances something should “go down”.

I also find MSU lists effective because if a Raider blows up so many gets killed, either from the explosion, or afterward from the small arms fire, as the Wreck ore Crater only gives a 5+ cover save. I therefore only disembark during the game with the Wyches (for assaulting Tanks etc) or the Trueborn (in order to get in range without having to Snap Fire - if absolutely necessary), disembarking the rest turn 5.

But of course, you are absolutely right. One object that “blows up” or a turn 6 or 7 is very bad for my list (if my opponent have some rapid-fire squads round). It is a matter of preference I guess, and so fare I enjoy the firepower that 4 Raiders and 5 venoms provide Wink

EagleWolff
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 28 2012, 09:59

Night shields coupled with pre-measuring, as has been discussed before, really add to the survivability of our vehicles - never again will our vehicles be downed by heavy bolters! Well, not quite as frequently anyway! I was enjoying using night shields in my last battle, sitting my Ravager just out of return fire distance and ruining tanks with it (the first time it's ever managed to do what I bought it for - this was its last chance, I think it knew). With night shields on everything, first blood is harder for your opponent to get if you position your vehicles carefully, or if night fighting is on.

Personally, I'm moving away from the MSU approach - I'm not abandoning small units altogether, but I'm finding that when a Venom gets destroyed, all the wyches inside get killed, so it's better to have Incubi in Venoms and bigger squads of wyches in Raiders, so at least some will survive if it explodes, and still be able to do some damage. Blasterborn aren't quite the essential unit they used to be anymore either, with the lances scattered throughout the rest of our list actually being able to glance stuff to death now, and haywire grenades being so good. The changes to the rules this edition really lend themselves to very varied army builds, with the idea of their being a "correct" army to win with not always being accurate. A certain Reaver heavy list springs to mind...

Larger squad sizes mean you can have warrior gunboats too. Pew pew pew!

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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 28 2012, 10:58

Thanks for the report! Your list feels slightly like a 5:th edition one, did you consider running Power Axe + Venomblade instead of Agonizer for instance? Smile

Contratulations on your second place and your Best army award! Would really like some pictures Smile
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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 29 2012, 08:13

I finished the army in March, so yes – it has a 5th edition feel to it;) But so far, it has worked. This was the first tournament in my area using the 6th edition rules. As people adapt I am certain that I will have to change the list.

I have trouble using Incubi. Every time someone “field them” in my gaming group, their transport is targeted, shot down (massed fire going its way), and they get stranded and then get shot to peaces. Of course, I should try using night shields and cover, and make them work, they are very good if they do get there – and if the opponent is out in the open (a lot of ifs).

When it comes to Blasterborn I still find them effective. Using Knight Fight / cover turn one, and maybe turn 2, they should be in range. But yes, they do die quickly if they are in the open (or the transport blows up). I tried to use them with Dark Lances, but did not quite mange to get them to work. They got “stocked” and did not fit in with the rest of my army concept (everything fast moving).

As far as the tournament goes, most played with an ally contingent, and one or more flyers. It was a Necron list with 6 “Flyers” who won. I am happy I did not play that list.

If you are interested in seeing some pictures / articles on my Dark Eldar army I have posted a link below. The first article is making a portable transport board to move the army from table to table, below that and you will se older posts with work in progress pictures and photos of finished units.

http://teamstormbolter.blogspot.no/search/label/Dark%20Eldar

Cheers,
EagleWolff
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 05:03

Well done at the tournament Wolffgard! I'd put in a third lance ravager too. Intelligent, well thought out write up and comments too guys. Lets hope it continues.

I've found DE vehicles (and therefore DE MSU) is considerably more powerful in 6th than it was in 5th for the following reasons...

1. Speed and manoeuvrability - 30" is better than 24". No brainer. Being able to wait till the end of your shooting phase to decide whether to turbo 18" or shoot offers us many options. Alot can happen in a DE MSU shooting phase... or not. Either way waiting to see what happens... or doesn't, before we choose if and where we turbo gives us much greater control of the game.

2. Durability - Being faster and more manoeuvrable makes us harder to hit, throw in pre-measureing, night fighting, some night shields and you should be able to seriously reduce the amount of firepower coming your way and control who takes it.

When they are hit a glance will do nothing instead of wrecking you at worst or leaving you unable to shoot at best. A pen now needs a 5 to destroy us instead of a 4 unless the weapon is AP1 or 2 which is not many long range, high rate of fire weapons.

3. Firepower - Being faster and more manoeuvrable also makes it easier to get LOS on threats. No brainer again. Hull points are our friend. Average rolling dark matter can reliably strip off HPs wrecking a vehicle that would have eaten up all our AT shots and kept on coming in 5th. Most cover and FNP being reduced to 5+ and wound allocation being sorted out helps both splinter cannon and dark matter no end.

Thats all i can think of right now tho i'm sure there is much more.

Im not saying MSU is the best way to go in 6th, it's far too early for that. I am saying that it is more powerful than it was in 5th. Personally i run an MSU style army with a couple of larger units in raiders and beastmasters running out front or down a flank.
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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 12:55

Great work man. Interesting list and comments. Also congrats on the tournament, and the painting! Just took a look at your models.

I was curious as to how the Archon performed? It's obviously not a list centred around CC. Looking at the list you could have two Haemonculi with LFGs in the list for the same price thus giving both wych units FNP and a distraction for overwatch if you wish to multi-charge an infantry unit.
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PostSubject: Re: MSU in 6th edition    MSU in 6th edition  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 02 2012, 15:29

Thank you guys for positive feedback ☺

Painjunky; I absolutely follow your reckoning around MSU in 6th edition, and this is why, although I guess the list has a 5th “feel to it”, it preformed well. One thing I will try out is increasing one or two Warrior Units, maybe using splinter racks. I am afraid that I am not good enough to hinder them from being shot down. I will also have to take one unit out to afford it, but I guess it is worth a try. Thanks for the “input”.

Mug7703; my original build was an Arcon with Blaster and Shadow fields only. It was suggested that I made him a “centrepiece” by building an Arcon that stands more out. I agreed, and so a bright orange Agonizer was the way to go. To times in 5 games he was ready to charge. As it turned out the Venoms and blaster annihilated the targets before he got around to it!

One variation of my list includes two Heamonculy with Liquefier guns, increasing the Wyches to 7 models, including Hekatrix with Agonizer (5th builds). Tested them during pre playing to the tournament, did no manage to get them to work (combination of owerwatch (Hem charging first until they died), Raiders blowing up, or they not having enough punch to hold against larger units of Chaos marines etc, made me keep them as anti tank units.

Currently I am looking forward to a private gaming event with only 6 – 8 players, at 2000p, no allies. Except getting rid of the Agonizer on the Arcon and using three Ravagers, I will take out the blasters in the warrior units and put in 3 units of 5 Scourges all with 2 Splinter Cannons each. Think that is going to be a “splinter” (blast) to play;)

Cheers,
EagleWolff
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