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Asrodrig
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PostSubject: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 08 2011, 03:26

I love the fluff on him, and he has some really awesome rules. I'm thinking of including him in a 1500 point army, along with a few Ravagers (Deep Striking) and a unit of Trueborn (with 3+ poisoned weapons). Has anyone used him before? Is he as good as he appears to be?

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 08 2011, 04:03

Copypasta from Warseer!

The Duke's a good character. He's got three special rules that don't exactly synergize with each other, but aren't uncomplementary either.

The simple answer is that you have to build to make him work. An ideal Duke build will include one rule you get a lot of mileage out of, one rule that is neat and works in your list, but you don't need it, and one rule that you could give a fig about.

Were I to build a list with the Duke, I would emphasize Deep Strike/Combat Drugs/Poisoned Weapons, in that order. I do not play Wych Cults or Hellion mobs, so the Combat Drugs are less valuable to me, but with my extreme love for all things Jetbike, they do lend assistance (two chances at a 6 = sexy time). In my opinion, the most optimal way to build the Duke is with an army emphasis on Combat Drugs/Poisoned/Deep Strike, in that order, since Deep Strike is situational based on the enemy, but Combat Drugs and Poisoned are things you can always build to use.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 08 2011, 04:08

*Ninja'd by Hashmal but my post may be worth a read mayhaps.

Yes. He is.

Duke isn't a combat monster, though he can handle himself if need be. It's really what he brings to the army.

The way I see it is he makes certain units better or cheaper. I run the Baron too so my basic Hellion has two chances of a great drug roll combined with the Baron's bonuses.

Contraband: Personally I feel that getting two rolls on the drug table is his best effect; it's not a reroll as some people think. It means you have double the chance to get the result you want or the option of two good ones. Have you ever rolled a 1 and sighed? You don't need to with Duke. Naturally he works best with some Wyches and Hellions in the army.

3+ dakka dakka dakka: His second best effect, all poisoned weapons in his unit wound on a 3+. Obviously he lends himself to Trueborn with Shardcarbines and Splinter Cannons and can create a cacophony of anti horde. Remember though that unit can get pricey and do you not have enough anti horde in the rest of your army? His rule does not affect vehicles. I run him with four Trueborn in a Venom, this keeps the cost down and allows me to concentrate on other units while having 5 guys that pack a real punch.

Deep Striking: And then all of his vehicles can Deep Strike. I've had much success deep striking a Ravager but more recently have chosen not too so that I provide more target saturation. Venoms can fire 12 shots on the way down and are small footprint wise so have a better chance than other vehicles to survive any mishaps. I haven't played any games deep striking my entire army and in theory it sounds horrible, but the option is there. Consider Duke dishing out free Retrofire Jets to your vehicles.

It is also worth noting Sliscus has to start the game with a unit of Kabalites unless none are present. I don't find this that limiting though others like to throw him into a unit of Wyches.

All in all, he's not an Archon with a Huskblade etc but he will kill one or two Space Marines a turn. He's got a Blast Pistol and a Shadowfield so isn't too lacking in the Wargear department but his strength is not in his stats. If you are getting strong use of two of his special rules then you are on the right track.

The golden brown rule with Duke is take him for what he does for the rest of your army: 150pts to upgrade every unit once or twice plus a free, decent HQ.

He is also the most badass Special Character ever, but you know that.... right?

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 08 2011, 04:11

I did the exact same thing. I had Sliscus with Trueborn in a raider, all armed with shard carbines. He and his Trueborn unit kicked butt against a unit of terminators led by Vulkan. Just with shooting they killed two and then Sliscus did two wounds to Vulkan and the first born killed one more. I would reccomend that they unit not get into CC unless it is a non power weaponed unit or very weakened. The three termis and Vulkan managed to kill the squad when they struck back.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2011, 08:34

@Sky Serpent wrote:
Obviously he lends himself to Trueborn with Shardcarbines and Splinter Cannons and can create a cacophony of anti horde.
+1 this.

@Sky Serpent wrote:
I run him with four Trueborn in a Venom, this keeps the cost down and allows me to concentrate on other units while having 5 guys that pack a real punch.
and this.

The only reason I don't take him sometimes is simply choice - that is, I just feel like running with something different. Otherwise, I think that he is our best HQ choice overall and the most cost-effective.
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Todo13
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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2011, 11:40

Slisicus trueborn against mcs, absolutely beautiful.
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Asrodrig
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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 02:08

I have another question, more for curiosity's sake than anything else: If the Duke is attached to a unit that has a Venom as a Dedicated Transport, do the Splinter Rifles or Splinter Cannon on the Venom get the 3+ poison bonus?

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 02:30

No does not affect the vehicles weaponry. Only the squad he is with.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 09:42

I've play tested him thoroughly and found that he's not so good in combat. But put with twenty warriors with two cannons you've got a unit that will put dents in anything with a toughness value.

To make the unit even harder to shift add in a haemonculus for the FNP.

When I've played him with trueborn and a transport he has become a target. Not a bad thing. sometimes its good to have bait.

But ultimately I agree with what has been said, to make him worht it you need to make the most out of his special rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 13:55

I had a list that he seemed to work fine in, plain old warriors in a raider with racks is stupidly lethal with the poison upgrade, shot fate weaver right of the table in one go with that, they average around 10 wounds on anything in rapid fire range, and due to the nature of 3's I have often rolled well above that, you have to spend a fair few more points on trueborn to top that and the re roll to hits makes the warriors reliable, bang for your buck I think they are the most efficient place to put the serpent.

He's not bad in combat either, mine recently killed lysander so can't complain.

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Hashmal
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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 15:54

@Sorrowshard wrote:
I had a list that he seemed to work fine in, plain old warriors in a raider with racks is stupidly lethal with the poison upgrade, shot fate weaver right of the table in one go with that, they average around 10 wounds on anything in rapid fire range, and due to the nature of 3's I have often rolled well above that, you have to spend a fair few more points on trueborn to top that and the re roll to hits makes the warriors reliable, bang for your buck I think they are the most efficient place to put the serpent.

I heartily agree with this. People get so caught up on Shardcarbines, they forget that Warriors with Splinter Racks make the Duke's rule truly ridonculous. The only thing Trueborn have over Warriors is better range when mobile and earlier effective range (18" versus 12", so probably firing one turn earlier to full effect). Once you or the enemy closes, however... yikes.

@Sorrowshard wrote:

He's not bad in combat either, mine recently killed lysander so can't complain.

Some people forget that. He's not a combat maniac, but he can certainly hold his own. A slightly weaker Agoniser that can still put out wounds if you don't roll a 5+ is a great weapon (and I wish the rest of the DE could get it at about 10-15 points a pop), and he does have a Shadowfield.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13 2011, 16:04

My take on the Duke is pretty simple. I adore him.

My initial lure to the man came from reading the fluff part. He's simply an awesome guy.

Couple that with my desire to play a fastmoving Wych heavy list, two dice to get that 6 is just supreme.

I play him in a venom with 2 TB w/ Carbines and 2 TB w/ Cannons, along with another two venoms of warriors, they provide the backbone of my anti-infantry fire. I have, on occation, tried DSing everything, to vaiating degrees of success. With the avrage range of guns in a DE list, dropping stuff in opens up alot of options for outmaneuvering, without having to risk the flat out move. I prefer to play my DE by choosing a flank, and hitting them hard from the side and rear, rather than a frontal assault, DSing let's you utilize a larger area of the board, and the opponent won't know where to concentrate his force.

I've so far seen two responses to DSing everything. Either the opponent will try to spread out to cover all possible angles, wich let's me focus everthing I have on small portions of his force.

Or he'll bunch up tight and holds back until my angle of attack is apparent, wich'll leave me almost a full board to maneuver on.

DSing is risky, of course. There's every chance your units will arrive bit by bit. I counter this by DSing, holding back, and using my speed to keep my force safe until atleast 2/3rd of the army is on the board.
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Asrodrig
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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 03:51

Good to know I'm not the only one who was immediately drawn to his character! Also, thanks for the tactical advice! I'll have to try out a few different lists before I decide what I want to deep strike and when etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 10:03

Just a little rules question regarding the Duke. It says "Pick a unit of Kabalite Warriors or a unit of Kabalite trueborn at the beginning of the game. Sliscus must be deployed with this unit. All Splinter weapons in that unit are upgraded to poisoned (3+), (...)". Now Sky Serpent has written this:

@Sky Serpent wrote:

It is also worth noting Sliscus has to start the game with a unit of Kabalites unless none are present. I don't find this that limiting though others like to throw him into a unit of Wyches.

But is it really so? I always read that rule like "In order for the splinter weapons to be upgraded to Poison (3+) Sliscus has to be deployed with the unit. It is not possible to get the effect by joining a squad later on in the game".
I don't think the Duke has to join a Kabalite unit no matter what (if they are present in the army), but rather has to do so if the player wishes to use the rule "The Serpents Venom". It is therefore not necessary to not field any Kabalites if the player wishes to deploy the Duke with, let's say, Wyches instead.
Am I wrong?

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 10:35

Q: What happens if your force contains Duke Sliscus but
does not contain any Kabalite Warriors or Kabalite
Trueborn, as the Serpentʼs Venom special rule says he
must deployed with one of those units? (p51)
A: He will deploy like any other independent character.

That was FAQed. No Kabalites in army = deploy like normal IC. Kabalites are present = he MUST join them, also this unit get permament 3+ poison shots. Not sure if this is one time buff (so he can ditch them and join CC unit in turn 1) but IMHO it stay his initial unit. Non Kabalites does not benefit from it IMHO.

So, in short, you either start with Kabalites that get 3+ upgrade or (if you don't have any Kabalites) lose this buff.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 11:05

Where does it say that you MUST join the Kabalites no matter what? I think you only must join them in order to get the bonus. So no upgraded unit running around without him.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 11:09

I've been kicking around the idea of using Duke with a Haemonculus that has a web way portal and keeping everything in reserve aside from the Haemonculus and his raider turn 1. It would be madness and I will try it once just to see how it goes.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 11:13

@Kinnay wrote:
Where does it say that you MUST join the Kabalites no matter what? I think you only must join them in order to get the bonus. So no upgraded unit running around without him.

I concur. Based on the wording in the codex I don't think you HAVE to deploy him Kabalites/Trueborn. Only if you want to get The Serpents Venom bonus for the unit.

"Pick a unit of Kabalite Warriors or a unit of Kabalite Trueborn at the beginning of the game. Sliscus must be deployed with this unit. All splinter weapons in that unit are upgraded to poisoned (3+), to represent the Duke's collection of hypertoxins in action."


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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 11:30

^ Exactly. Also the FAQ only says that it is legal to field the Duke even if no Kabalites are present.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 11:31

Pick a unit of Kabalite Warriors or a unit of Kabalite Trueborn at the beginning of the game.
Sliscus must be deployed with this unit.

Exactly here. You can't "not pick" if You can pick. You are obligated to choose one from your Kabalite units , then attach Duke to them.

Unless there is no Kabalites in army, so You may skip whole rule and deploy like normal IC (this was FAQued because people at tournaments bitched "WOOT? CAN'T DEPLOY DUKE WITHOUT KABALITES? WTF?").
I don't know how THAT may be confusing.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 11:42

Being aware of the danger of a mod moving this whole thing to the Rules section, I dare taking this discussion further.

I see what you point out, Local_Ork, but I really think that "Pick a unit" only refers to the bonus. It does indeed say that you HAVE to pick a unit. And it does also say that Sliscus HAS to be deployed with said unit. But it then goes on to talk about the bonus he grants to that unit.
You see, it doesn't say "Duke Sliscus has to be deployed with a unit of Kabalites", or "An army including Duke SLiscus has to have at least a unit of Kabalites in it (I know, FAQed). Duke Sliscus has to be in that unit. Furthermore, said unit gets a super cool bonus of venomy death."

As I see it, it really just says that in order to get the upgraded Kabalite weapons, the Duke HAS to be deployed with the unit from the beginning.

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14 2011, 13:36

@Kinnay wrote:
... it really just says that in order to get the upgraded Kabalite weapons, the Duke HAS to be deployed with the unit from the beginning.

The problem being that it doesn't state this anywhere, and as a special rule the only way these are ignored if there is a MAY in the description which at no point in this rule this is used.

I second what local ork says, i think this is straight forward, If it said something along the lines of "If you want this upgrade you must deploy...." or "You MAY deploy with a unit to get this upgrade" then ok but anything other than that it is one of his special rules that must be followed weither you want it or not.

Rules could then just be used as and when you wanted them. Whereas all rules of a character are in play unless you are givent he option by a key word like "May". This sort of wording becomes very effective in games like Magic the gathering that would work on a similar ruling. Positive or Negative effects they take place either way.

The FAQ just clears up that he can be used if you don't fancy fielding Kabalites

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15 2011, 09:27

The codex states pretty clearly that you have to pick a unit of kabalites, and that you must put Sliscus in that unit. It then moves on to describe a leviating benefit of these musts. The only way to get this to be voulentary, is to do like for example Kinnay is doing, add alot of words that isn't there, to completely rewrite the rule to his liking.
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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15 2011, 10:09

Bottom line here is, if you are using The Duke and have kabalites/trueborn why would you not pick a unit to deploy him with? The bonus he gives them makes it a no brainer. I think all Kinnay was trying to say is that The Duke can be run in an army without kabalites (ie Wych Cult).

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PostSubject: Re: Duke Sliscus   Duke Sliscus I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15 2011, 10:20

@SinisterPlank wrote:
The codex states pretty clearly that you have to pick a unit of kabalites, and that you must put Sliscus in that unit. It then moves on to describe a leviating benefit of these musts. The only way to get this to be voulentary, is to do like for example Kinnay is doing, add alot of words that isn't there, to completely rewrite the rule to his liking.

Whoa there, I only added words that weren't there when I made an example formulation of how the rule could look like if it really was to be mandatory to have the Duke in a unit in Kabalites. Whenever I wrote about the original rule, I did so exactly like how it's written in the Codex.

Yes, in the end I agree with you guys in the question of 'Why wouldn't you want to deploy him with Kabalites'. The only thing I was saying is that I don't think the rule demands you to do so. I won't, however, be the guy who starts a fight about that in a game. I'll tell my opponent once why I think it should be that way. If he or her agrees, we'll play it like that. If my opponent says no, I'll have to go with it, as it clearly seems to be the way of thinking of the majority. Smile

EDIT:

Plague, amazing Avatar! Where's that from?

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