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PostSubject: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 00:00

Interesting discussion going on over at ytth regarding Ravagers "aerial assault" rule.

Does the Ravagers' "aerial assault" rule, DE Codex, supersede the "hard to hit" rule, BRB?
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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 00:05

cant resist, and im not trying to be rude, but I have to ask;

Do you ever get lonely solipsist?



nice forum handle! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 00:18

@solipsist wrote:
Does the Ravagers' "aerial assault" rule, DE Codex, supersede the "hard to hit" rule, BRB?

Short answer: RAW -yes. RAI - Hell no!

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 08:08

Indeed. We've had this discussion ages ago. So it's not a very interesting discussion at all.

I would even go so far that RAW it doesn't even override the "hard to hit" rule, as Aerial Assault only applies to the restrictions on firing by moving vehicles. Think about it. If by RAW you would continue this line of thought it means that if you staid 'stationary' you hit flyers at 6s, but if you moved at cruising speed you'd all of a sudden magically hit flyers at 3+?

...

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 09:18

@tlronin wrote:
Indeed. We've had this discussion ages ago. So it's not a very interesting discussion at all.

I would even go so far that RAW it doesn't even override the "hard to hit" rule, as Aerial Assault only applies to the restrictions on firing by moving vehicles. Think about it. If by RAW you would continue this line of thought it means that if you staid 'stationary' you hit flyers at 6s, but if you moved at cruising speed you'd all of a sudden magically hit flyers at 3+?

...

I agree it makes no sense whatsoever. Sadly, GW doesn't write rules that make sense 100% of the time. Everyone can see what the intent is here and only a true moron would try to actually play this way. I like to know about this sort of thing just so that if I do happen to play such a moron he can die by the sword.

"You're going to assault after disembarking from a Land Raider after firing heavy weapons? Okay, well I'm just going to blow up that Stormraven with my Ravagers, hitting on 3+. Thanks!"

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 14:05

Before the faq, by raw, then yes they could, possibly, it really depends on if you count the snap shot bs change as a set modifier or not. But after the faq, the answer is no, which ever way you look at it.

I posted an explanation in that ytth blog post, will copy it here with a couple edits for typos and junk. If you are interested, here are the two views.

answer #1: snap shot bs1 is not a set modifier. snap shot doesnt change your bs, it makes your bs count as bs1. you could have a bs of 100, still going to count as a bs of 1 for the purpose of snap shot.
answer #2: snap shot bs1 is a set modifier, and the following is the process (warning, geek speek):

The rules that apply are…
- modifiers, brb pg2: set values are modifiers.
- mulitple modifiers, brb pg2: set modifiers are always applied last.
- exceptions, brb pg9: player whos turn it is, choses order if multiple simultanious effects occur.
- Aerial assault: set to full balistic skill = a set modifier.
- hard to hit: set to bs1 = a set modifier.

now by that alone, yes, dark eldar ravagers at cruising speed can indeed shoot at flyers with full bs. but there is the following faq.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

So, snap shots can never be further modified by special rules. Once snap shot applies, it’s bs1.

there was also a question of tau seeker missles...

The seeker missle may be fired normally in all respects, even if the vehicle is shaken or stunned. Therefore, the vehicle is not considered shaken or stunned with respect to firing, and you do not apply the shaken or stunned modifiers for firing. So you fire like normal at BS5. It is a set modifier, applies last, and since you are the active player, you choose.

Now if they tried to fire said seeker missle at a flyer, it would be BS1. Because shooting at a flyer applies snap shot, and snap shot faq.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 17:25

Problem with this argument is, that then Aerial Assault would never work, because weapons of a vehicle that moved are also forced to make snap shots.

I think it is intended to only work for moving and not for other purposes, but it is never clearly said, why it works with one type of snap shot, but not with others.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 14 2012, 18:50

Aerial assault replaces the standard rule while moving at cruising speed, just as being a fast vehicle does. So instead of a Ravager being: full, full, snap. Ravagers with aerial assault are: full, full, full.

I don't think anyone ever thought that was a question, but good you brought it up. The issue was with the persistance of the aerial assault rule, which really there isn't, but the arguement was there.

standard vehicle cruise: snap, snap, snap.
fast vehicle cruise: full, full, snap.
vehicle with "aerial assault" cruise: full, full, full.

Targeting a flyer, makes it snap shots at bs1 that can't be modified. That's the short answer.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 17 2012, 16:12

@Tiri Rana wrote:
Problem with this argument is, that then Aerial Assault would never work, because weapons of a vehicle that moved are also forced to make snap shots.
up to 2 weapons on a fast antigrav vehicle can fire at full BS.

RAW would really say that you can shoot with 3+ on flyers, but no fair play player uses that in the RAI imho.
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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 07:49

Guys, please!

RAW it says you shoot flyers on 6s aswell. Why?

The Aerial Assault only overrules the restrictions on shooting by moving. Then you get a totally different section, that has nothing to do with the Aerial Assault rule, which tells us to snapshot flyers. Sure FAQ > Codex > BRB, but it's always a certain rule or restriction. Not across the entire book.

Think about it. By the logic some of you displayed here the rulebook itself would contradict itself. When it says for Fast Skimmers, move 12", fire 2 weapons at full BS. Could you then fire those 2 weapons at full BS at a flyer? No. Because the section that talks about flyers says you can only fire snapshots at flyers, regardless of moving.

What does the Aerial Assault rule tell us? Exactly... Case closed.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 08:28

as above exactly! +1 to this!

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 09:25

@tlronin wrote:
Guys, please!

RAW it says you shoot flyers on 6s aswell. Why?

The Aerial Assault only overrules the restrictions on shooting by moving.<snip>.

That might be what GW would like it to say but it is not what it actually says. GW need to get into the habit of having special rules remove restrictions rather than giving permissions. Either that or adding in caveats

Quote :
a Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of its weapons using its crew’s full Ballistic Skill

What we have here is a rule which gives us permission to fire all weapons at full BS as long as we moved at cruising speed. There are no other restrictions on this. If you move at crusing speed you can fire all weapons as full BS. End of.

What it should say however is

Quote :
a Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of its weapons using its crew’s full Ballistic Skill if otherwise permiited to do so

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 09:34

[quote=tlronin"]What does the Aerial Assault rule tell us? Exactly... Case closed.[/quote]
It tells us that Codex > BRB.
Logic would be that one part of those rules is only about the ship moving and the other isn't, but with RAW, a rule is a rule, and it doesnt actually say it, as Adhemar just said.

However, it seems true that the BRB kinda contradict itself with shooting vehicles and flyers rules.
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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 09:41

@Count: You ignore what I said, so i'll repeat it:

"Think about it. By the logic some of you displayed here the rulebook itself would contradict itself. When it says for Fast Skimmers, move 12", fire 2 weapons at full BS. Could you then fire those 2 weapons at full BS at a flyer? No. Because the section that talks about flyers says you can only fire snapshots at flyers, regardless of moving."

They don't need to write: "if otherwise permitted to do so". The part about shooting at flyers clearly says: Snapshots. That's all you need to know.

There's no difference between 'like' or 'actually'. It says exactly what was needed to be said.

@Fruz: Oh my gosh... Slippery slope my friend. All of a sudden there's a huge problem in the rulebook because we got a little confused about Aerial Assault? Come on guys! It clearly says the Ravager can shoot all weapons at full BS when moving at cruising speed (emphasis by me for importance). The rulebook then carries on by ruling you can only fire snapshots at flyers. I don't see the problem in this. Where's the contradiction?

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 09:52

That's the last time I'm gonna say that on that subject.
( BTW, common cordiality rules also apply to you ).

CODEC > BRB
whatever the Rule book says, the FAQ "overrides" the Codec which "overrides" the Rule Book.

Which means, if the ravager moves at cruising speed, it can fire all its weapons at full BS ( which obviously replaces the snap shot against flyers statement ).
And that's all there is to say, and nothing at the moment can go over it ( since it's not in the erata/faq ).
case closed.

stop mixing RAW and RAI or RAW and logic please.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:07

@Fruz

Well isn't that a crisp and clear way to 'win' a discussion. Lol. I tried the 'case closed' thing and it didn't work, obviously. Very Happy

1) Cordiality. I said 'friend', wasn't that cordial enough? Ok, serious for a sec. I'm very tired of the: By RAW you can, by RAI you can't. 'Cause it's not true. That's why I was trying to end this today. Obviously it's more difficult for some than I thought. And I apologize ofcourse if I insulted you in any way. I can become quite passionate sometimes, it's a burden I must bear. Wink

2) See my 1st post of today. FAQ > Codex > BRB, so we agree.

3) "which obviously replace the snap shot against flyers statement" and this is where we absolutely do not agree. How did you come to this conclusion. To me, this conclusion comes falling out of the sky out of nowhere. So if you can tell me why by RAW the Aerial Assault in our FAQ overrules the Hard to Hit rule, you've got a case. Because by RAW the only thing Aerial Assault overrides is that when you move at cruising speed for Fast Skimmers you can fire all weapons at full BS instead of 2.

4) Which brings us to mixing things. I'm not mixing anything, RAW = RAW by me. Some of us should stop mixing rules of the main rulebook. I think 40K will become more playable that way

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:13

@tlronin wrote:
So if you can tell me why by RAW the Aerial Assault in our FAQ overrules the Hard to Hit rule, you've got a case. Because by RAW the only thing Aerial Assault overrides is that when you move at cruising speed for Fast Skimmers you can fire all weapons at full BS instead of 2.

If you read my previous post, this is already explained.

Quote :
What we have here is a rule which gives us permission to fire all weapons at full BS as long as we moved at cruising speed. There are no other restrictions on this. If you move at crusing speed you can fire all weapons as full BS. End of.

As this is a Codex rule, any BRB rules that limits this ability is automatically overwritten. We can all clearly see that the Aerial Assault rule is intended to simply increase the limit on weapons fired after moving but that is not what the rule says. It gives us blanket permission to fire all 3 weapons at full BS when moving at cruising speed. Come what may.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:16

That's what I think as well, it does not specify any particular target in the codex, and since it's that, from the very moment that it shoots, the rule applies.

But everyone agree to say that it is not the way it should be ( and IG, I wouldn't play with it unless my opponent is an ass, or/and is abusing some rules )
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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:23

@Count:

Maybe it becomes more clear what I mean if I put it like this: "Hard to Hit (P81)" > "Aerial Assault (from our FAQ)" > "Shooting with fast vehicles (P83)"

IMHO the flaw in your reasoning lies in: "any BRB rules that limits this ability is automatically overwritten". Is that so?

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:26

The opposite can be said as well, what makes you thing that "Hard to Hit" > "Aerial Assault" ?
Those two rules are concerning the same thing when shooting at flyers, even if one has been made without taking the 6th ed ( and the other rule ) in consideration.
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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:27

@tlronin wrote:
@Count:

Maybe it becomes more clear what I mean if I put it like this: "Hard to Hit (P81)" > "Aerial Assault (from our FAQ)" > "Shooting with fast vehicles (P83)"

IMHO the flaw in your reasoning lies in: "any BRB rules that limits this ability is automatically overwritten". Is that so?

I wouldn't call it 'a flaw in my reasoning' so much as 'my reasoning'. It's not flawed because the rulebook specifically tells us

Quote :
On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.'Where this occurs, the
rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:29

@Fruz
Because: "Those two rules are concerning the same thing when shooting at flyers"

HtH concerns flyers.

Aerial Assault concerns "Shooting with fast vehicles (P83)".

So IMHO the opposite can't be said.

@Count

Ok, im sorry for saying 'flaw'.

It says 'a conflict'. I don't have a (read: There is no) conflict with HtH in relation to AA.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:34

Why are you guys arguing about this? Does it matter? We all know it wasn't intended. It would be rather unkind to shoot at full BS against flyers in a friendly game. And in tournaments it would not be allowed. Why invest in a tactic that won't be around come the next set of FAQs?

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:38

@Mushkilla

You are right ofcourse. I didn't intend to have it blow up like this. I just read again that by RAW you can and by RAI you can't and it is my strong opinion that by RAW you can't either. Plus what further got me worked up, I guess, is that it's from YTTH again. So, don't need to go into details there I think.

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PostSubject: Re: ravagers shooting at flyers   ravagers shooting at flyers I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 10:44

@Mushkilla wrote:
Why are you guys arguing about this? Does it matter? We all know it wasn't intended. It would be rather unkind to shoot at full BS against flyers in a friendly game. And in tournaments it would not be allowed. Why invest in a tactic that won't be around come the next set of FAQs?

I don't think anyone is arguing in favour of actually using this loophole. As to why I'm arguing, I'll have to quote myself I'm afraid:

Quote :
I like to know about this sort of thing just so that if I do happen to play such a moron he can die by the sword.

"You're going to assault after disembarking from a Land Raider after firing heavy weapons? Okay, well I'm just going to blow up that Stormraven with my Ravagers, hitting on 3+. Thanks!"

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