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DarkGregson
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PostSubject: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 20:37

I was wondering witch unit out of elite and fast attack people prefer. scratch

If you do prefer a unit over the others, why?

Also when you use this unit how many models do you use and how do you use them.

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alexwellace
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 21:07

Eliete: Trueborn --

do you like winning, 4 trueborn, four blasters and one venom with two cannons. WIN

Incubi-- you like having awesome super fun? These guys are awesomacoolamegaTEQtoMEQkilling awesome...it had to be said. AP2 makes them trolly. Park an Archon with PGL with them in a venom, fly up and eat face.

Halquins. No dedicated transport. No power weapons. No good guns. Nothing an incubi carnt do better, cooler and with an awesome face.

Wracks. Troops. 'nuff said.

Grots. Ogryn syndrome, needs a baby sitter and carnt be transported in units bigger then 3, yeah,yeah....NO!

Bloodbrides. Haywire granades only get 1 hit, extra attacks are irrelevent. Wyches cheaper, get more trueborn.

Mandrakes. LOLno.

That ok for you?
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DarkGregson
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 22:04

@alexwellace wrote:


Incubi-- you like having awesome super fun? These guys are awesomacoolamegaTEQtoMEQkilling awesome...it had to be said. AP2 makes them trolly. Park an Archon with PGL with them in a venom, fly up and eat face.


I dont think i could agree more. Im getting some Incubi soon and im so exited! Twisted Evil

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 22:04

Grots have preformed very well against everything but cheater knights and their instant death weapons.

Reavers are very good this edition

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 22:07

Should point out you can have 4 grots with 2 HQ in 1 transport, usually a succubus and a haemy
Pit those against some incubi and the outcome may shock you especially with 2 liquifiers.

But incubi are awesome, just saying don't write off the grots entirely

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DarkGregson
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 22:20

@Seshiru wrote:
Should point out you can have 4 grots with 2 HQ in 1 transport, usually a succubus and a haemy
Pit those against some incubi and the outcome may shock you especially with 2 liquifiers.

Incubi aren't for killing tough multi wound enemies. They're for taking out units with any form of strong armor.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 23:31

I don't think any of our elites or fast attack are bad as such, just some aren't as effective as others in certain roles. Mandrakes shooting at a horde would be great, for example. I do feel sorry for harlequins, as for a little while they stood a better chance of taking out Terminators than Incubi did, but now Incubi have surpassed them again. I'll still use them because I like the models, and hit and run is a really annoying thing to do with a unit that has furious charge and hopefully ends its move in cover for a 2+ save from whatever unit they just tore into. I have to admit to not really seeing much mileage in Bloodbrides, as the ability to spam Venoms is cheaper to do with wyches, who can take the same number of the best special weapon (shardnet and impaler) as the same size squad of Bloodbrides in a Venom anyway. I know a lot of people run them as a bodyguard for Vect, but I just can't see the appeal myself.

In fast attack, I feel spoiled for choice when I look at our options. Reavers are even better than they were now, with the ability to land in terrain after turbo boosting all the way across the board giving them a ridiculous save. So are beastmasters, with their movement and charge making them an instantaneous threat in some deployments. Scourges have changed slightly, but are still really good anti armour. Hellions are a solid anti infantry squad, who are scoring with the Baron, who is practically essential for them. They still work without him, but he's so few points and not too hard to convert, so you might as well do it really. More troops options are always good. Their independent character snatching trick is just fun too - hit and run to drag the character away after charging, then hit and run again to leave him stranded in the open for disintegrators in your turn. What's more, they all look amazing - I couldn't say which were my favourite models out of hellions, scourges and reavers.

I guess wracks haven't been mentioned because people field them with haemonculi so often that they're usually troops. To my mind, they're not really "elite" enough to justify their placing in the force organisation chart, but they are an excellent scoring option - I like to use them to hold an objective in cover, preferably the hardest one to get to, as you don't feel like they're not doing something they should be if you don't send them zooming round the field. I'll be using a squad of ten of them with a pet Cronos on hand to see how that works out soon...

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 15:00

@alexwellace wrote:
Eliete: Trueborn --

do you like winning, 4 trueborn, four blasters and one venom with two cannons. WIN

Incubi-- you like having awesome super fun? These guys are awesomacoolamegaTEQtoMEQkilling awesome...it had to be said. AP2 makes them trolly. Park an Archon with PGL with them in a venom, fly up and eat face.

Halquins. No dedicated transport. No power weapons. No good guns. Nothing an incubi carnt do better, cooler and with an awesome face.

Wracks. Troops. 'nuff said.

Grots. Ogryn syndrome, needs a baby sitter and carnt be transported in units bigger then 3, yeah,yeah....NO!

Bloodbrides. Haywire granades only get 1 hit, extra attacks are irrelevent. Wyches cheaper, get more trueborn.

Mandrakes. LOLno.

That ok for you?

very over simplified, and wrong on a few accounts.

First off Trueborn can also bring a ton of splinterfire to bare to an army that doesnt have a ton of AI (so think more raiderspam, less venomspam) But their best purpose is used as suplimental AT (so 3~4 blasters or 2 lances)

Secondly Incubi are amazing, but the price point is a big downfall (especially if you want their full effectiveness, that means your paying the Archon PGL tax as well) But used well, they can chew through anything.

Harlies are an interesting choice now. While they dont hit as hard as incubi, what they do is they bring a ton of attacks in a very survivable platform (shrouding and stealth gives them a 4+ in the open, or a 2+ in any terrain) Our two CC elites are the opposite of the Banshee/Scorpion dynamic that Eldar have. Incubi have the armor and can punch through anything, while Harlies have the attacks but are fragile if used wrong. Also their ability to ignore terrain effects period means they can keep up, even with a raider force.

Wracks are definately better suited for a troop choice, but even a normal force can use them for some cheap flamethrower action (or trying to fit another vehicle in)

Grots... First off the max in a transport is 4 (as they take 2 spots... leaving 2 for characters). Overall a Grots job is to lay down those high strength attacks and alot of them. They soak damage like a champ, and can dish it out even to high armor targets with alittle luck (liquifiers anyone???) Their best idea is for bullet magnets. Throw them up in someone's face and either they focus on trying to kill the poor suckers, or face the wrath of all those S6 hits (you did put a haemie with them to get FC right???)

Bloodbrides are cheaper versions of Harlies w/ Haywires. More fragile, but a ton of attacks. Good point is they can atleast take a transport. Maybe not the best choice, but used well can do some major damage.

Mandrakes... you know what... I cant even give you any other advice then dont use them... ever...

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alexwellace
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 20:40

I was under the impression that Grots took up 3 spaces, dont know where from though.

+ could you take a guess at the numbers who use splinterborn insted of of blasterborn compettitivly? Also i wrote it in between matches of Dow2 retribution....so i apolagise if it was a bit to simplified for some.
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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 21:25

Bloodbrides are only 3 points more expensive than wyches for an increased attack, don't know if you people have 'mathhammered' this one out already, but to me that seems solid.

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Melkor
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 22:05

Yeah but bloodbrides are not scoring, and still only get one haywire attack.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 03:58

Bloodbrides are deadly efficient at killing about anything. Here are some numbers I did before for Bloodbrides damage output. Red is the number of unsaved wounds caused by the squad. Green is the number of points the squad has killed of the opposing squad. Cyan Is the percentage of their own point value that the squad makes back in kills.


Bloodbrides- 10 man w/ 3 Hydra Gauntlets, Syrien w/ Agoniser= 43.5 regular attacks, 5 power weapon attacks
(Weapon Skill Drug)
MEQ- 4.884; 78.114; 41.128%
GEQ- 11.343; 79.404; 41.791%

(Strength Drug)
MEQ- 4.871; 77.936; 41.018%
GEQ- 14.575; 102.025; 53.697%

[Attack Drug (52.5 regular attacks, 6 PW attacks)]
MEQ- 4.41; 70.56; 37.136%
GEQ- 13.679; 95.753; 50.396%

(Re-Roll Drug)
MEQ- 5.895; 94.32; 49.642%
GEQ- 21.853; 152.971; 80.051%

Bloodbrides- 10 man w/ 3 Razorflails, Syrien w/ Agoniser= 24 regular attacks, 12 attacks w/ re-rolls, 5 power weapon attacks
(Weapon Skill Drug)
MEQ- 5.403; 86.448; 45.498%
GEQ- 12.341; 86.387; 45.466%

(Strength Drug)
MEQ- 5.495; 87.92; 46.273%
GEQ- 15.117; 105.819; 55.694%

[Attack Drug (30 regular attacks, 15 re-rolls to hit and wound, 6 power weapon attacks)]
MEQ- 5.242; 83.872; 44.143%
GEQ- 15.345; 107.415; 56.534%

[i](Re-Roll Drug)

MEQ- 5.756; 92.096; 48.471%
GEQ- 18.509; 129.563; 68.191%

As you see even against marines, bloodbrides still make back their points very quickly.


@alexwellace I will admit you would see more blasterborn than splinterborn, but that isnt saying they cant be a competitive choice. shard carbines are amazing guns, and the ability to take 2 splinter cannons in a small squad shouldnt be overlooked. Each list is different, and if you feel that you need more splinterfire, they are an excellent choice (although a venom is always better personally)

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 10:13

Use Doom to support that hydra gauntlet squad and you are in for a good time by the looks of things. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 12:46

Sneak in a heamy for the free PT. Yummy.

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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 16 2012, 16:47

Wracks, but only attached to a Hammie. Take liquifiers. Acothyst with a venom blade, mount them in a raider. Because DE is so fragile, if it gets hit, it gets hit hard and it dies so fast you wont have an army left. Wracks sort of counter that problem- if ur fragile units (i.e almost everything) die then at least you have a couple of semi-tough and violent wracks left- you will still have a chance. Also wracks are really fun with all their re-rolls, and a very effective combat unit. A 9 man squad with a hammie attached will bring the pain! For 10 points each (exluding the hammie, of course) you get 27 attacks on the charge (excluding hammie attacks) that reroll to wound against T4 and worse. After the charge it'll be T3 and worse though.

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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 16 2012, 18:00

I've gone through just about all of them in my army but my current favorites are Incubi (love that ap2!) and 10 scourges with 4 haywire blasters.
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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 17 2012, 00:26

I've always loved using Incubi, and trueborn are also very, very good. I haven't played around with FA all that often, I usually want other stuff in my army more.

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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 17 2012, 07:30

our FA choices arent bad at all,
i love my reavers and take a squad of 9 to most of my games. they usually rock with x3 caltrops and they're my opponents most hated unit as he cant really do much about them!
scourges are ok, been a bit underwhelmed with them so far. they dont do that much that other units cant do better tbh, i'd rather spend those points on reavers for mobile AT and mounted trueborn do mobile AI just as well really.
incubi are ace. simple
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 17 2012, 09:03

Fast Attack is now my favourite section of the FOC. I'd quite happily field an entire army of them if I could. Reavers are superb in 6th and Beasts are possibly our most resilient unit now. Hellions and Scourges also have their uses and the models are gorgeous.

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><enocide
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 19:40

9 Trueborn with Shard Carbines attached to Duke Sliscus.

Hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, dishing out a possible of 27 poisoned wounds, and statistically, about 16 wounds or so should be the most common output of this unit. Throw them on a raider with a Dissie cannon, now you have a possible 3 AP2 shots. I had a unit just like this except with only 6 Shardborn on a dissie raider against grey knights, they wiped out 6 GK terminators/paladins and the leader went and hid in a Land Raider LMAO! GK leader running home to mommy in a Land Raider? What could be more appealing?

Blasterborn are a must have, Incubi are my favorite model out of the entire army (whole reason why I started playing DE),
the other elites, leave at home on the shelf. Don't bother with them unless you have a specific army list just for these "special" elites.

Fast attack? I'm a fan of all of them! Scourges are amazing models, can pack a punch, and have some surivivability by DE standards. RJB's? What more a fun way than zooming 36" and inflicting so many S4 and S6 hits? WATCH OUT FOR FLAMERS THOUGH! They are the BANE of RJB's. Now there's a trick for the beast masters by having the right build, they can have up to like 70 wounds per unit? Talk about a bullet shield.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 20:12

Quote :
the other elites, leave at home on the shelf
Why not bloodbrides? They are decend unit, if costly one.

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><enocide
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 20:55

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
the other elites, leave at home on the shelf
Why not bloodbrides? They are decend unit, if costly one.


Witches can just about do everything they can for way cheaper. Bloodbrides are a classic example of throwing too many eggs in one basket in my opinion. Get witches, save the points, and hopefully use those points towards another duplicate witch squad. The extra points for a name, access to a few more weapons, and an extra attack can be compensated by another witch squad. When playing DE think quantity, not quality.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 21:02

Quote :
DE think quantity, not quality.

After i ordered Blood Vestals its too late =)

I agree about the opinion of course. If you cant protect chosen elements of your army you should make all elements threatening equally. But if you can - thats another story.


Last edited by Azdrubael on Wed Sep 19 2012, 21:17; edited 2 times in total
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 21:03

@><enocide wrote:

Bloodbrides are a classic example of throwing too many eggs in one basket in my opinion. Get witches, save the points, and hopefully use those points towards another duplicate witch squad. The extra points for a name, access to a few more weapons, and an extra attack can be compensated by another witch squad. When playing DE think quantity, not quality.

True, but there is something to be said about force concentration.

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Kinnay
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PostSubject: Re: Elite and Fast Attack    Elite and Fast Attack  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 23:57

Geesh was I confused when I only peripherally saw the Sliscus profile picture of ><enocide and the post beginning with a praise to Sliscus, totally expecting Sky to be posting, and then... Razz

On topic, I can't decide. Competitively speaking, sure, Blasterborn and maybe Incubi seem to be the way to go. But except for the wet, stinky towel that are the Manflakes, each of our Elites knows to impress. I'm a big fan of Harlequins and just recently started liking Bloodbrides. A 10 woman squad with an Archon repeatedly (!) annihilated eight man Khorne Berzerker squads with Chaos Lords. It's unholy how many attacks they dish out, especially with combat drugs.

As for Fast Attack, I've never used Beasts so far, but am very pleased with the performance of my Reavers and Scourges. They're in as often as possible.

Really, our Codex is a helluva book; we can be proud.

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