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 Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer

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Melkor
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PostSubject: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 09 2012, 22:17

For your enjoyment I present charts which show the average number of unsaved wounds expected when an Archon uses a Huskblade vs a Venom Blade. For simplicity, this chart assumes 4 hits and no invulnerable saves.



VB 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ none
1 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
2 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
3 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
4 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
5 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
6 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
7 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
8 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
9 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333
10 0.555555556 1.11 1.666666667 2.222222222 2.777777778 3.333333333


HB 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ none
1 3.333333333 3.333333333 3.333333333 3.333333333 3.333333333 3.333333333
2 2.666666667 2.666666667 2.666666667 2.666666667 2.666666667 2.666666667
3 2 2 2 2 2 2
4 1.333333333 1.333333333 1.333333333 1.333333333 1.333333333 1.333333333
5 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667
6 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.666666667
7 0 0 0 0 0 0
8 0 0 0 0 0 0
9 0 0 0 0 0 0
10 0 0 0 0 0 0


As I am sure most us know, the lower the toughness and the better the armor save, the better it is to use the Huskblade. Interestingly, the dividing line occurs right at MEQ's. At T 4 and 3+ Save it begins to be better to use the Huskblade. For a little bit of extra fun, let's look at terminators. Standard termies with a 2+ armor and 5+ Invul would be expected to fail .888 wounds against the Huskblade, and .555 against the Venom blade. Against the dreaded storm shield termies with 4+ invul, the Huskblade wounds fall to .666, still better than the Venom blade. All in all, this mathhammer show that the venom blade is the better weapon in most situations on paper. However, the extreme concentration of units in the areas that the Huskblade is better against (MEQs and TEQs) means that the Huskblade is well worth the points. I think I will go with conventional wisdom and take both. Hopefully the charts above will be useful in selecting which blade to pull from the scabard! Happy soul hunting!

(Anyone have any ideas on how to format this chart correctly?)


Last edited by Melkor on Sun Sep 09 2012, 22:19; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : charts messed up...)
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 00:53

You know the storm shield is a 3++ right?

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Melkor
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 01:23

*facepalm* Stupid error on my part. I am actually fortunate enough to have a meta where terminators are actually non-existent. With the 3++ it would be .4444. Thanks for the catch.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 08:08

Thanks for the breakdown! I am currently looking to throw down a huskblade and venom blade archon. The huskblade is great for challenges and the venom blade is nice to have in your back pocket if you have to attack a unit or say your friendly neighborhood demon Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 08:21

Huskblade also has the advantage that when fighting multiwound characters (that don't have EW) one wound is all you need. Since now you can have two different weapons and still get the bonus attack, you might as well also take the 5 point Venom Blade to deal with higher toughness (or low save) enemies.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 09:14

Interesting analysis. I don't take CDs on my archon. I find they are a waste as only 50% of their rolls are useful to an archon, and two of those are irrelevant once you soul trap something. The Xpts saved are enough to get a haywire grenade (for the odd walker) and a venom blade for daemons (or good invulnerable save, bad regular save units), and toughness dependant MCs (wraith lords, C'tan, taloi, etc)

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 10 2012, 17:08

Personally when I'm willing to spend 35 points on the Huskblade I just go ahead and spend 5 more points to get the venom blade to (since you no longer lose the attack), the loss of the splinter pistol is nothing since you probably want your archon throwing a plasma gernade any way.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 13:59

@Seshiru wrote:
Personally when I'm willing to spend 35 points on the Huskblade I just go ahead and spend 5 more points to get the venom blade to (since you no longer lose the attack), the loss of the splinter pistol is nothing since you probably want your archon throwing a plasma gernade any way.

Agreed, but still useful knowing when to use which weapon Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 16:27


Personally if I was going to use the husk blade I'd go the whole way, and include a venom blade, dijinn blade, shadowfield, combat drugs, haywire grenade & soul trap. Although the dijinn blade is only ap3 I think the 2 extra attacks are perfect for when the archon has doubled his strength from the soul trap.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 16:38

@Rathstar wrote:

Although the dijinn blade is only ap3 I think the 2 extra attacks are perfect for when the archon has doubled his strength from the soul trap.


Perfect for IDing you on a double.

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Melkor
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 19:11

Hmm? I don't get the point of soul trap when you have the venom blade/huskblade combo.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 20:18

You can't use a Venomblade and a Huskblade at the same time. You have to pick one or the other. You can carry both, though.

So, you carry the Soul Trap and kill the IC or whatever with the Venomblade's 2+ to wound and use that to power up the Archon's S. After that's done, you can use the Huskblade with S6.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 20:28

@Melkor wrote:
Hmm? I don't get the point of soul trap when you have the venom blade/huskblade combo.

Troll or serrious? For 10pts the soul trap basically makes your huskblade an ap2 venom blade after you kill any charecter or MC (str6 wounds most on 2+). That being said I agree with taking the venom blade as well for 5pts to give you a chance to hurt t7+ or things with high armor save early on.
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Melkor
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 20:52

I apologize I was thinking of something else.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 12 2012, 17:05

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Rathstar wrote:

Although the dijinn blade is only ap3 I think the 2 extra attacks are perfect for when the archon has doubled his strength from the soul trap.


Perfect for IDing you on a double.

True, but you do have the shadowfield, and 8 str 6, ap3 attacks on the charge is nasty. If I only had the points I'd be tempted to put a farseer with the default divination power to give the archon rerolls to hit

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 02:01

Right up until the djinn rebels and you ID yourself!

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ftayl5
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 03:32

Interesting combo, soul trap, huskblade and venom blade. Very powerful but getting into the realms of too expensive I think and a bit situational too.
I don't think the argument against the HB, that it can't wound above T6, is all that important either. How many things are T6+? And how many poisoned shots are we already capable of unleashing every turn anyway?
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer   Venom Blade vs Huskblade Mathammer I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 10:21

@ftayl5 wrote:
How many things are T6+?

Talos, Chronos, C'tan shard and Wraithlord (are the only things unwoundable by S3). That being said the venom blade can be handy against daemons (invulnerable save and eternal warrior) and it's also useful if the IC you are trying to kill refuses to be challenged, as a venom blade does a better job at chewing through a orks/guard/eldar/daemons/tyranids then a non powered up huskblade.

Personally though I run my archon cheap:

Archon, SField, Hblade and STrap - 135pts

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