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Evil Space Elves
Haemonculus Ancient
Evil Space Elves

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Join date : 2011-07-13
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 08 2012, 15:29

@Massaen wrote:
It's still the best versio of 40k to date for me having played all 6

I've played all six versions as well and have to agree with you completely. I've actually renewed my love for the game with the new changes. A great deal of the frustration with the new rules seems to be the result of trying to use 5th edition tactics and army lists(based on 5th edition rules) without adapting. There are a few glitches in special codex rules (bladevane attacks for instance) that are a bit wonky and have to be revised in FAQ's. Given the gargantuan range of armies it seems that they've done a rather good job at making the transition between editions work.

Perhaps our new AP2 close combat weapons just have me in a jovial mood Razz

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 08 2012, 16:33

*looks up from hit paintdesk*

I'm enjoying 6th very much so far as well. I'm playing since 3rd. So I agree with massaen and ESE.

*continues working on his Incubi + Archon + Venom*

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Darkgreen Pirate
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 08 2012, 21:19

@tlronin wrote:
*looks up from hit paintdesk*

I'm enjoying 6th very much so far as well. I'm playing since 3rd. So I agree with massaen and ESE.

*continues working on his Incubi + Archon + Venom*

+1 internets to this.

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Krovin-Rezh
Kabalite Warrior
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Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Arizona

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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 03:34

Sorry about that guys. I am actually glad they are fixing the issues more quickly (at least some of them), escpecially since Incubi and Archons got fixed. There just comes a point when there are so many pages of FAQs/errata that it becomes unwieldy. I suppose I could put a bunch of notes in my codexes and rulebooks so that I know where they've been changed, but that's a LOT of work.

Also, I still think in the 5E rulebook it was easier to find what you're looking for. And I'm a bit miffed that assault reserves got nerfed for no good reason. Was overwatch and more interceptor guns not enough?

I started playing at the start of 3rd Edition, and those rules seemed much easier to get into than this overblown mess. I don't see 6E being very good for growing the community. It just makes the game slower and more complicated.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 10:07

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
I started playing at the start of 3rd Edition, and those rules seemed much easier to get into than this overblown mess. I don't see 6E being very good for growing the community. It just makes the game slower and more complicated.

Been playing a bit longer (bought Rogue Trader on day of release, along with a box of beaky marines) but I agree with this. The rulebook itself is very unintuitive as you have to look in several different places to get the full rules for what you're doing. The only saving grace is that the index is actually quite comprehensive!

The rules are also very clunky, particularly with wound allocation. I totally support the idea of the closest models taking the most hits but the way in which this was handled was pretty crap. The idea of the front model taking every shot until he dies is just ridiculous. Would have taken about 30 seconds to come up with rules that were simpler and quicker to use. In fact...

Roll to hit and wound, using majority Toughness where applicable.
Allocate any wounds to the nearest models in the target unit, but each model must have 1 wound allocated before they can have a second wound allocated. Models out of weapon range cannot be allocated wounds.
Roll all identical saves in a batch and remove casualties from the front of the unit until you run out of models in range. Excess wounds are lost.
Characters may make LOS rolls before making their saves to transfer wounds to the nearest models.

Doesn't that accomplish the same thing without giving rise to the likes of Draigo shielding an entire 50-man IG blob from all harm?

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Shadows Revenge
Hierarch of Tactica
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 11 2012, 15:07

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Also, I still think in the 5E rulebook it was easier to find what you're looking for. And I'm a bit miffed that assault reserves got nerfed for no good reason. Was overwatch and more interceptor guns not enough?

I would like to point out 5th Ed was the culmination of 2 editions work of refinement (3rd, 4th, and 5th were pretty much the same game) and even then there were still a mountain of FAQs to remember and shift through.

6th Ed is completely different. Sure it draws alot from 5th, but there are so many things that have changed and pushed the game into a different direction. Im actually glad of its complexity, and find it far superior to "5 guys in a tank" syndrome 5th fell into.

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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 12 2012, 16:34

I dont think that does the same thing Adhemar.

GW's new way is very simple: weapon in range of unit. Fire shots, make hits, make wounds. Apply one to closest model in unit. If that model is a char he can try to los to the next closest model. Take save. Repeat, one hit at a time. If model dies, continue with the next model, etc, until you run out of hits. I fail to see where this is complex, or clunky, it's the easiest system they have ever had: one at a time, starting from the front.

Your way is not the same, but it depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to mimic GW, I'll point out a couple of things I see that are off.

The way you use weapon range, you are limiting who in a unit can die. Take a mob of 20 orcs, with only one orc in range of infinite shots that all hit and wound and fail saves. Your way, one orc dies. GW's way, all 20 will die.

There is also the proxy effect of mixed saves. Your way: if a paladin is up front, he can make all his saves and still be removed by wounds taken by weaker models, simply because he was up front. This is close to the old no retreat wound problem, where units could not hurt a carnifex directly, but could still kill it, if they multi-assaulted a unit of gaunts standing next to the fex and force it to take no retraet wounds.

Closest model makes thematic sense in a lot of ways, which is what they were going for. Fire a hail of bullets at a crowd, its the dudes up front that are going to eat it. If you clash in melee it's the dudes trading blows that are going down first. If the dudes up front are tough, great they can take it. If the dudes up front are weak, then they will get mowed down.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 12 2012, 16:57

@mukslinger wrote:
I dont think that does the same thing Adhemar.

GW's new way is very simple: weapon in range of unit. Fire shots, make hits. Apply one hit to closest model in unit. If that model is a char he can try to los to the next closest model. Take save. Repeat, one hit at a time. If model dies, continue with the next model, etc, until you run out of hits. I fail to see where this is complex, or clunky, it's the easiest system they have ever had: one at a time, starting from the front.

Your way is not the same, but it depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to mimic GW, I'll point out a couple of things I see that are off.

The way you use weapon range, you are limiting who in a unit can die. Take a mob of 20 orcs, with only one orc in range of infinite shots that all hit and wound and fail saves. Your way, one orc dies. GW's way, all 20 will die.

There is also the proxy effect of mixed saves. Your way: if a paladin is up front, he can make all his saves and still be removed by wounds taken by weaker models, simply because he was up front. This is close to the old no retreat wound problem, where units could not hurt a carnifex directly, but could still kill it, if they multi-assaulted a unit of gaunts standing next to the fex and force it to take no retraet wounds.

Closest model makes thematic sense in a lot of ways, which is what they were going for. Fire a hail of bullets at a crowd, its the dudes up front that are going to eat it. If you clash in melee it's the dudes trading blows that are going down first. If the dudes up front are tough, great they can take it. If the dudes up front are weak, then they will get mowed down.

I'm not sure you've entirely understood either the rules or my post. the current rules are that If, when To Hit rolls are made, a model is out of range of weapons that are fired at it it cannot be killed (BRB pg16). This is a change from 5th edition where (stupidly) only one model needed to be in range for them all to die. So my version would not in fact change anything there.

Secondly, you roll identical saves in batches. So a 2+ Wolfguard in the front of a 3+ Grey Hunter Squad would roll his saves separately. In fact, let's use that as an example.

A 10-man Kabalite Warrior unit is firing at a unit of 10 Grey Hunters led by a Wolfguard in Terminator Armour, who is the closest model.
Warriors fire and score 7 wounds with splinter rifles. These are allocated to the 7 nearest models that are in range, which are 6 Grey Hunters and the Woifguard. Saves are then rolled in batches of identical saves. So the Wolfguard rolls one save (2+) and the Grey Hunters roll 6 (3+). 2 fail and the closest 2 Grey Hunters are removed. The Wolfguard survives.

Under the current system, you would roll saving throws against the Wolfguard one at a time until he was dead and only then would you roll for the Grey Hunters. Chances are that the Wolfguard would die in this scenario but the Grey Hunters would all survive. So the difference is that in my version 2 Grey Hunters die and the Wolfguard survives, as opposed to the Wolfguard dying and the Grey Hunters all surviving.

As I said, this took 30 seconds to come up with but is already quicker and easier than the convoluted way that GW came up with. Not saying it's perfect but it's an example of how it could have been done.

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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 12 2012, 18:14

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure you've entirely understood either the rules or my post. the current rules are that If, when To Hit rolls are made, a model is out of range of weapons that are fired at it it cannot be killed (BRB pg16). This is a change from 5th edition where (stupidly) only one model needed to be in range for them all to die. So my version would not in fact change anything there.
Maybe I don't understand, so let's discuss and clarify. I'm geussing the following rule is what we are talking about, and you are infering, from it: that models out of range can not be allocated wounds. I'm also thinking that It is possible you are cross-referencing "out of line of sight" with "out of range."

Out of Range
"As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls
were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of
the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that
the closest model now lies out of range."

I want to fire at an enemy unit, I check range. (P.12): My shooting models are within range of your unit, by measuring to the closest model in your unit. Lets say all my guys are in range of the just the front dude of the enemy unit. Great, they can all shoot, they are all in range of the target unit. I shoot, I hit, I wound. no arguements here. now here comes the clarification...

(P.12) - checking range: "Any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit doesn't shoot". The attacker as the model, and the defender as the enemy. continuing. (P.16) - out of range: "As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made," Again the attacker is the model, the defender is the enemy. The "out of range" clarification is not as redundant as you think, it deals with the timing of multiple wound pools.

So essentially, yes, it is the same as fifth, to a fashion. The only real change (aside from closest first) is if some of your models were behind a wall that makes them out of line of sight, you can't bend bullets around the corner like you could in 5th. But as long as they are in line of sight, they don't have to be in range to be allocated wounds and die.

lets see if we can get on the same page here.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Secondly, you roll identical saves in batches. So a 2+ Wolfguard in the front of a 3+ Grey Hunter Squad would roll his saves separately. In fact, let's use that as an example.
I think we can agree that you don't have to roll identical saves in batch's, or anything in batches, it's just a mechanic to speed things up if you can. In this example, if he is up front, the Wolfguard takes it one at a time until he dies. Then you may choose to roll what is left over in a batch for the Grey Hunters.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
As I said, this took 30 seconds to come up with but is already quicker and easier than the convoluted way that GW came up with. Not saying it's perfect but it's an example of how it could have been done.
Man, I really hope my post helped you. Because, I can certainly see how you could get frustrated with trying to keep track of what is in range of what shots. I was just trying to think of the scenario of subgroups of wound types plus subgroups of saves with multiple ranges, It must have been driving you insane.

Check range. Roll to hit. Roll to wound. Select a wound pool. Allocate one wound to closest model, deal with it, repeat till pool is empty. batch roll if you can to speed it up. causes much less brain hurt.

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Krovin-Rezh
Kabalite Warrior
Krovin-Rezh

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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 02:29

There's no way to always batch the wounds by changing the procedure. This is because outside of "fast dice" situations, you have to wait to see the result of the first wound before you can roll for the next. The procedure itself is random, so you can't simulate it without changing how it works.

But there may be another way to speed up the process. We just need a way to roll all the dice at once with a predetermined ordered sequence applied to them. The best way to do that is to rely on the relative positions of the dice. I'm going to have to test various ways to do this, but I think it will work best with a sloped container so that the dice all fall into a groove and line up. Even better might be a dice tower that funnels the dice through one at a time.

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W'fo
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 13 2012, 20:03

So....how does drazhar work now? Sad

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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: NEW FAQS!   NEW FAQS! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 15 2012, 00:28

Not sure if anyone noticed this yet or really care.

Page 53 – Lady Malys, The Crystal Heart.
Change the paragraph to “To represent the strange powers of
the trans-dimensional being whose heart beats in her breast,
Lady Malys and her unit cannot be targeted by psychic
powers.”

They changed it from immune to effects to cannont be targeted. So Force Weapons, Beams, Maelstroms, and Novas can hit her and the unit.

Edit: Nova actually targets a unit in range.

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