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 Thoughts on the viability of close combat

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grandlordzero
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PostSubject: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 06:02

Reading through Warseer, Bell of Lost Souls, 3++ is the New Black, /TG/ and even here in The Dark City, I am bombarded over and over with a recurring notion that close combat is dead, and that shooty armies are the future of 6th edition. Whether or not this is true or not for other armies, I am not qualified to judge. However, I firmly believe that Dark Eldar, more then any other army, should not give up on close combat, and they are fully capable of doing the majority of their damage to opposing armies via close combat. Keep in mind that I'm still a rookie at 40k, and if you the reader find any errors in my interpretation of the rules, disagree with my tactics, or think of a way to improve upon anything written here, please post. We Dark Eldar players are far, FAR fewer in number then the Mon-keigh, and we need to work together to defeat those power-armored boy-scouts. (:<


There are a few primary things that have changed with the transition from 5th to 6th edition. These are the new rules for disembarking, random charge length, and overwatch.

Lets go over how our raiders were used to disembark and charge back in 5th edition:
12 inch raider movement + 2 inch disembark + 6 inch charge = 20 inch threat range (21-26 if fleet is used instead of shooting)

Now 6th edition:
6 inch raider movement + 6 inch disembark + 2-12 inch charge = 14-24 inch threat range

This means that our guaranteed threat distance is 6 inches shorter then it was before. However, we can gamble a bit to reach higher distances (through random charge length) and fairly easily hit the same threat range we used to have. The rule of thumb though is that the closer you are to the opponent, the safer you are. I personally think charging more then 8 inches is a bad idea, as the chances of failure are far, FAR too high after that.


Overwatch poses a problem for our basic troops. Most weapons wielded by basic troops have an AP of 5 and a strength of 4. For simplicity's sake, I will refer to these as bolter equivalents from now on since they are the most common weapon seen in gameplay these days. While the range, strength, and AP value of basic trooper guns varies from army to army, they all usually ignore our armor saves, wound us on at least a 4+, (usually a 3+ in the case of bolter equivalents), and have at least a 12 inch range (more then enough to hit any of our models when they are in charging distance.

Mathammer Time! 10 Bolter shots * (1/6) chance to hit * (4/6) chance to wound = 1.111 wounds that ignore wych armor saves. Meaning on average, a 5 man stock tactical squad firing bolters in overwatch will kill at least 1 wych. This is problematic to say the least. Wracks are roughly twice as durable as wyches, but they require a homunculus in order to take them as a troops choice, and they do not have fleet, meaning they are more likely to fail the charge after overwatch (since overwatch removes the units closer to the squad, putting more distance in between the charger and the victim).

There are two ways to improve wyches ability to assault things. The first is to upgrade a wych to a hekatrix and take a phantasm grenade launcher. The phantasm grenade launcher gives your squad defensive grenades. In 6th edition, as long as you are within 8 inches of an enemy that is shooting you, and you have defensive grenades, you have the stealth rule (meaning a 6+ cover save).

The second way to improve your ability to assault may seem radical to those who write their army lists based around fluff, such as pure-wych cult armies or pure-homunculus coven armies. However, I for one intend to get the most out of the Dark Eldar codex, and I intend to win. I propose that Dark Eldar players do not purchase a squad of wyches without first purchasing a homunculus to accompany them. The homunculus grants the squad a pain token, which means they get feel no pain. The 6+ cover save from the defensive grenades and the 5+ feel no pain save combine to give the wyches a 45% chance of resisting any wounds they take in overwatch so long as the wounds are not strength 6 or higher. (the feel no pain also improves their durability in close combat)

There is a problem with attaching a homunculus though, and that is the loss of fleet. According to the new 6th edition rules, a squad only has fleet if EVERY UNIT IN THE SQUAD has fleet. A homunculus does not have fleet. Meaning that in order to charge with overwatch resistant wyches, you must first separate the wyches from the homunculus (leaving the homunculus' pain token with the wyches of course.)

Thoughts on the viability of close combat BasicHaemo-WychCharge

This image shows the wyches and the homunculus disembarking from a raider separately and charging a squad of tactical marines separately. The wyches will most likely all survive the overwatch and will most likely get into close combat with the marines due to fleet.. Once that occurs, the homunculus can make his own charge move without having to worry about overwatch or slowing down the wyches. This solution creates another problem however, and that is that the homunculus is HORRIBLY vulnerable when you do this. If he fails his charge, he most likely will get shot by the opponent next turn. And without feel-no-pain or a saving throw, he is most likely going to die. If he gets into combat, the enemy can choose to allocate their wounds towards the homunculus instead of the wyches since he is a separate unit at that point.


The solution to this problem is simple. Never use a single raider full of troops to assault a single enemy unit. Use at least two raiders, each with their own close-combat models inside. When the homunculus disembarks from a raider separately from his formerly attached squad of wyches, move him into base contact with the other squad that just jumped out of their raider (such as a squad of wracks). As long as he is within 2 inches of that squad at the end of the movement phase, he joins it and forms 1 single unit (with a pain token and look-out-sir rolls).

Thoughts on the viability of close combat Dual-Charge

I recommend for every homunculus and squad of wyches you take, you also take 1 squad of wracks. I like to call this strategy the “Dual Charge”. A squad of wracks synergizes with the homunculus and wych squad better then a second squad of wyches would since the wracks already have a pain token and don’t have fleet. (meaning they don’t lose anything by not starting the game with a homunculus attached and having one attached later when he doesn’t have a pain token.)


Since you can take up to 3 homunculi per HQ slot, you can take 3 squads of wyches, 3 squads of wracks, 3 homunculi, 6 raiders, and a Warlord HQ character like an Archon, Drazhar, Sliscus, Vect, Malys, or Lilith without breaking the rules of the force organization chart. This means you can perform 3 dual charges in the same turn, against 3 separate targets. Or in a lower points level game, you can take a homunculus, squad of wracks, squad of wyches, and 2 raiders and upgrades of your choice for less then 400 points. (Great for Combat-Patrol style missions)

Unless I screwed up and broke the rules of the game somewhere, the dual charge tactic fixes the majority of our problems with assault for those willing to run mixed armies of both wracks and wyches. What do you all think?

Also I apologize if this felt like a thesis. I kinda just started typing about how I think we can solve our assault woes and this all came out. lol
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 06:16

What does this movement trick achieve?

I cant see any big reasons to save haemunculi from overwatch. I would rather he eats its, then wyches.

Also in all new analysis of assault units i fail to see numbers of dead bodies from Splinter Pistols and Plasma Grenades. I have been using them for quite some time now and the effect is visible.

There is difference in that we always shoot now before assault.

My usual assault force now is Raider full of Wyches, Heka with Agoniser and PGL + 2 Venoms with Wyches, Heka with Lances. Thats a synergetic force with ability to cover-charge + enough toys to cause much needed first turn damage and some shooting power with 3 plasma greanades.
Its also bane of all mechanised.

I also find that Overwatch is too much maligned, often enough it does zero damage, when i charge already weakened targets that just fails to hit.
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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 07:08

Dark Eldar assault is screwed; an exploding raider will kill 60-70% of the wyches inside(the most mind numbingly retarded rule change in 6th by farrrrr....thanks a lot Necrons you cheesy bastards) even with a pain token that's half of your wych squad dead just from their vehicle blowing up. To make the idiocy of that rule even worse they didn't change the way ork's ramshackles work, so our T3 units feel the full blast of the S4 explosion but T4 orks get the benefit of a S3 explosion O.o

Adding insult to injury is the fact that the ladies can no longer tie down larger units of basic infantry cause the overwatch is just brutal, charged a unit of fire warriors the other day and lost 5/10 on the charge, rolled slightly below average to wound and lost in combat to WS2 tau.....that's DE assault in 6th edition for you.

Incubi got nerfed but they are still good, AP3 klaives are a joke, and now the fact they are usually ran in smaller squads is gonna make the few times overwatch kills one hurt that much more. However, they will still chop a marine squad to bits along with anything that doesn't have 2+ armor or FNP. Their high cost however coupled with their now more limited array of uses just makes them another elite choice we have that isn't as good as trueborn.

Succubi(who I thought were gonna get better in 6th) are now as bad of an HQ choice as Decapitator.

Sliscus isn't really worth it anymore cause CD's are worthless(even though they are suppose to be our treat for not being able to take psykers....)

It really seems like when they made 6th they had a discussion like this-

GW guy 1-"we're getting a lot of complaints from marine players that dark eldar are beating them in close combat"
Everyone in room- ::Gasp::, "O the horror", ::one women in the back begins to cry::
GW Guy 2- ::stands up and pounds fist on the table:: "WE MUST PUT A STOP TO THIS!! Everyone knows our game is suppose to be fair and balanced as long as you play a race we like"
GW Guy 3- "I know who do these stupid dark eldar players think they are? They are lucky we even updated their book that one time!"
GW Guy 1- "Don't worry everyone I have a plan!! First we make everything cause a str 4 hit; they're ship blows up? Str 4 hit, they stub their toe? Str 4 hit, They look at a grot funny? Str 4 hit"
GW Guy 2- "I like it; and then we can let ppl shoot any unit that is charging at it so those stupid wyches will get shot to bits"
GW Guy 3- "We'll teach them what happens to races we don't like!! 'Nids are still pulling stitches out of their stupid bio mass butt holes"
Everyone-"MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I LOVE MARINES AND GUARD SOOOO MUCH MWAHAHAHAHAHA


Meanwhile you have armies that can field 9 or more flyers, bikers that can take a lascannon to the face and still keep coming, large blast barrages that do full str hits even if it nips the back spike sticking off of your hull. Fair and balanced.....rofl....


Ok i'm obviously a little bitter here but for reals; if you wanna win with DE now you spam Venoms or Gunboats....we had a good 2 year run where we could have a nice variety of list builds and enjoy the codex(and we could ::gasp:: beat imperial guard....how crazy?), now we are relegated to a one trick pony once more...shoot poison and lances, rinse/wash/repeat........




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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 07:45

Quote :
Dark Eldar assault is screwed; an exploding raider will kill 60-70% of the wyches inside

Point is - we are more likely to be Wrecked, then we are to be Exploded. Things that kill us en masse before (auto-cannons, assault cannons, psycannon) are likely to strip raider of all hull-points before they actually blow it with new damage table.I actually think our assault units are more safe then before.

And single shot AP1/2 weapons are far less reliable to shot us down as ever, cover and misses still affect them more.

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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 08:00

We're open topped so it's all +1 anyway soo even with a non ap2/1 wpn we will get blown up before all 3 HP's are gone

AP3+ explodes us on a 5+
AP2 explodes us on a 4+
AP1, which we usually don't get hit by cause of it's short rage and NS's, explodes us on a 3+

So a raider with 3 HP's get's penned 3 times by an ap 4 wpn that has a 1/3 chance of getting an explosion.......that math is rather grim if you ask me.

I want to agree with you cause i LOVED close combat, but shooting armies are the all the rave now for dark eldar, other xenos races are fine in CC(Deamons, Orks, etc) but DE are not one that can do it as effectively anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 08:59

Tl;DR but our only assault units don't have to be trasnported via Raiders. Beasts have a pretty mean range, and can soak up a tonne of wounds/absorb some small arms fire away from our Venoms/Raiders.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 09:22

@callof: i use a cc heavy army Razz and although we are still threatened by high S good ap weapons, we are more safe in our vehicles than we were before Razz
@lordzero: love your av Very Happy aaaaaand...your example with the wych tacs are horribly off. 1) if you stay on this tac, use the haem to take up initial damage, 2) to few wyches, 3) why didnt you weaken the squad?
cc isnt off for us, i use a cc heavy list - and am going to repaint my models, i just got inspired by a firebird, so will need a lot of paint! New army theme: Phoenix. Phoenix Blood Armada...not a bad name, though it is a bit off for DE, but i consider the army a not that typical DE list, esp /w dual FO and allies CWE

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 09:43

cant say i've been having too many problems with my hybrid lists. only thing that rides in my raiders is warriors/blasterborn who werent assaulting anyway.
all my assault troops come from the webway, supported by a cronos. cronos flames a unit, grants a unit fnp. bombs it with the large blast, 2nd unit gets fnp. both squads of 15 wyches open up with pistols and grenades and theres not a lot left. next turn, assault to mop up.
works a treat so far.
just make sure artillery/flame units are priority one for your lance toting elements
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 09:47

I never thought of DE as being that amazing at close combat in 5th. The Archon and Incubi could mince some stuff up, wracks had their place and wyches held things up for turn after turn, but I didn't see them as a close combat army. They lack the strength needed to wound most other armies in combat, and don't have the numbers to overwhelm anyone, meaning you have to weaken your target before charging it. This means shooting every time before the charge is pretty good for us, like Azdrubael says. And it fits the fluff and overall style of the army.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 10:13

Well in my experience CC works fine. At the end of the day wyches die, deal with it. Smile

Things that I have learn't so far:

1)Raider explode, it's a DE fact that everyone walks home. However when they do explode they leave a nice bit of area terrain for you, giving you a 4+ save with a PGL (a 3+ save if you go to ground, defensive grenades don't work when you go to ground). Fleet makes you better at charging through terrain (charging through difficult terrain with fleet is better then charging in the open without fleet). Raiders tend to die anyway, you might as well try and crash it as close to the enemy as possible, why? Well assuming marines and other shooty things this means they can't get out of your 8" stealth bubble. It means you will be able to charge them without first moving out of your crater (therefore getting a better cover save against overwatch). If the wych unit that got shot down contains an archon, your opponent might decide to focus a lot of his fire onto that one unit, all you do now is go to ground and take it on a 3+ cover save, this can help keep the rest of your army safe. Finally the exploding raider might do some damage to the enemy unit near by, not reliable, but every little helps.

2) The other thing I have learn't to do is use a unit to screen my wyches. This could be another wych squad, but most of the time it's my reavers. You can then charge the screening unit in as well if you want (the enemy will already be tied up so can't overwatch)

In this picture my reavers screen the lone succubus giving her a 5+ cover save when she charges the grey knights.
Thoughts on the viability of close combat Screening101

3) Another option is to use tougher units like reavers (T4 4+ cover) and incubi (T3 3+ armour) to "tank" the overwatch and tie up the unit.

4) Finally use depleted squads to attempt to draw out overwatch.

In this picture the lone wyche on the right charges the grey knights, the player decided not to overwatch as she is 10" away, however she makes the charge, preventing the grey knights from overwatching and as a result protecting the other wyches from getting overwatched.
Thoughts on the viability of close combat Depletedcharge

Hope that helps! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 11:07

enfernux: ok so congrats for still using a cc list? Now go try and play any kind of tournament list with it and see how much luck you have. We are no safer in our vehicles this edition than we were last; only difference is the explosion hurts more....

1++: A venom has always seemed more of a shooting DT to me; 5 T3 models don't have much hope of winning or even holding down most standard sized units in combat, 5 wyches w/ hwg's however is a scary little suicide unit, so I still use them for that.

CSjarret- As I said to enfernux; try that against a tourny list and see how it works out for u.

Mr. Believe- They were not as terrifying as 'nids or something like that, but they were good enough to beat most armies that could out shoot you. Now you are hard pressed to make it there with enough left to do that, that's the problem, its not that we were some godly cc monsters, but we were VERY GOOD. The rule changes in 6th have forced us to play much more one dimensional.

Mushkilla- I know wyches die, they have always hated bullets, but is it too much to ask that they at least be capable of making it there somewhat intact? I couldn't disagree more with the whole "rush at them and use the crater of your vehicle as cover" strategy tbh, if it works for you great but I just don't see that working against a lot of the people I play. You also know that you declare all charges against a unit at the same time right? So you can't go "I charged you with this one person and made it so now i'm going to charge a squad at you from the other side and you can't overwatch them". You would declare they are both charging that unit at the same time and roll separate for each and your opponent would decide which one they wanted to overwatch.



Not to be argumentative just theoryhammering, i'm glad you guys are trying to see the silver lining of the cloud, and believe me I loved DE CC and I would love for it to be as effective as it once was. That just hasn't been the case from my experience in 6th.

Incase you are thinking I might just be a sucky player; my record with DE in 6th is 23-5-1, my Sliscus wych list is 9-4-1 with my shooty gunboat/venom list being 14-1. So i'm not saying my assault armies get roflstomped every game, it's just so much more a pain in the ass to make them work lol.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 11:10

@callof: yes, i do play in tourneys, most of the time im in top3

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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 11:23

There is a difference between tournaments at a local hobby shop and GT's, do you honestly think any of the DE players at Nova are going to be running assault based lists? If you have went to any major tournys and made top 3 with a CC oriented DE list than you are a truly awesome player.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 11:34

@callofdoobie wrote:

Mushkilla- I know wyches die, they have always hated bullets, but is it too much to ask that they at least be capable of making it there somewhat intact?

I'm just being realistic, the truth is they die, you can't change that. So I'm just trying to make do with what I have got.

@callofdoobie wrote:

I couldn't disagree more with the whole "rush at them and use the crater of your vehicle as cover" strategy tbh, if it works for you great but I just don't see that working against a lot of the people I play.

Sometimes losing raiders is inevitable, so getting the most out of that loss is all you can hope for.

@callofdoobie wrote:

You also know that you declare all charges against a unit at the same time right? So you can't go "I charged you with this one person and made it so now i'm going to charge a squad at you from the other side and you can't overwatch them". You would declare they are both charging that unit at the same time and roll separate for each and your opponent would decide which one they wanted to overwatch.

Wrong.

Quote :

Charge Sub-phase
...
-First, pick one of your units, and declare which enemy unit it wishes to charge.
-Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch.
-Once Overwatch is resolved, roll the charge distance for the unit and, if it is in range, move it into contact with the enemy unit - this is sometimes called 'launching an assault'.

Once this has been done, you can either choose to declare a charge with another unit, or proceed to the Fight Sub-phase.

-BRB page 20

I might not be a GT/NOVA tournament player, but I know how to get the most out of the rules.

@callofdoobie wrote:

it's just so much more a pain in the ass to make them work lol.

I couldn't agree more, it does take a lot more effort to get the most out of them, in some ways that's the fun part. Smile

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 11:35

please, can you convince Nova to come to hungary? If so, then i WILL go! Very Happy
why do you believe LGS tourneys are different? Ppl go from all over the country to a tourney - probably because of the rewards(??)

Yes, i went to a major hungarian tourney, and got 2nd place with my cc oriented army. The 1st place went to GK -.-

@Mushkilla wrote:

@callofdoobie wrote:

it's just so much more a pain in the ass to make them work lol.

I couldn't agree more, it does take a lot more effort to get the most out of them, in some ways that's the fun part. Smile

some times the hard things in someones life become the most fun things ^^

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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 12:10

I suppose I can stop the arguing as this point; if we are all still winning and happily playing Dark Eldar in 6th edition that's all that really matters. Our respective opinions on the state of Dark Eldar close combat are not really all that important when you think about it that way.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 17:05

I think the opinion and perception is slightly skewed. Overall, we did take alot of minor nerfs that all combine to feel like a bigger nerf, but it just diversified our CC more.

The opinion that dark eldar CC sucks isn't true. The idea that wyches suck much more is may be a little more concise. Wyches went from being arguably one of the best CC units in the game, to being average. The reason is obvious. Before Assault + wyches = god, Shooting + wyches = swiss cheese wyches. Overwatch, no matter how unlikely it is to hit, leverages the biggest weakness of wyches in their best phase.

The raider points are valid, for now, as people move away from the melta and back to plasma, you'll see our raiders become more suvivable. In the mean time, I've found more success in a Dark Footdar hybrid list, heavy assault units like Pain Engines and Grotesques, and fast moving flankers in beasts and jetbikes.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 04:41

Sorry I haven't replied in a while, been busy these past few days. Real life gets in the way sometimes. ):<



@Azdrubael wrote:
What does this movement trick achieve?

I cant see any big reasons to save haemunculi from overwatch. I would rather he eats its, then wyches.

I don't know about you guys, but when i take a homunculus, i usually kit him out pretty well to support the squads he is going to be working with.. I give him a liquifier gun, flesh gauntlet, and vexator mask so that he can lay down that awesome template, and then get in CC and instant death non-eternal-warrior HQ's and monstrous creatures (the kind of targets that a hekatrix has a difficult time killing due to them having multiple wounds). That runs 90 points, and I would very much prefer to not lose those 90 points to overwatch. However, if you dont kit your hommunculus out at all, i guess you could make a very viable strategy out of using him to charge first and tank the overwatch so your wyches dont have to. I just feel that this kind of defeats the purpose of wyches in 6th edtion, which is to tarpit, kill vehicles with haywire grenades, kill sargents in challenges (in my oppinion, the hekatrix is the best sargent in the game at challenges when you factor in how cheap she is compared to necron lords and powerfist marines), and to tank overwatch for your other more valuable squads (like wracks, incubi, and beastmasters) with their phantasm grenade launchers and feel no pain. Plus, with fleet, wyches have a higher chance of not failing the random charge length then your other squads (and even if they do fail the 2d6, the opponent is thinking that they are going to succeed, and is going to use his overwatch against the wyches, leaving your wracks/incubi/beastmasters/whatever free to charge without taking overwatch.) They dont seem like the kind of unit that is used to eliminate squads completely anymore (thats beastmasters, wracks, and incubi with their rending/poison/powerweapons, respectively)



@callofdoobie wrote:
Dark Eldar assault is screwed; an exploding raider will kill 60-70% of the wyches inside(the most mind numbingly retarded rule change in 6th by farrrrr....

What exactly changed to make raider explosions and more problematic then they used to be? I just checked the 5th book, it was strength 4 hits with a pinning test for the occupants in 5th, and it still is in 6th. Am I missing something in the rules?



@callofdoobie wrote:
Adding insult to injury is the fact that the ladies can no longer tie down larger units of basic infantry cause the overwatch is just brutal, charged a unit of fire warriors the other day and lost 5/10 on the charge, rolled slightly below average to wound and lost in combat to WS2 tau.....that's DE assault in 6th edition for you.

That sounds like unlucky rolling on both the overwatch and the close combat. It sucks, but it happens sometimes. My condolences. ):

Tau pulse rifles wound us on a 2+, but only hit us on a 6+ in overwatch. They also ignore our armour saves. So (1/6) chance to hit * (5/6) chance to wound = .138 wounds per shot. meaning a squad of 10 firewarriors using rapidfire will on average kill 2.77 wyches during overwatch (proving my point that they need feel-no-pain/phantasm grenade launcher to help out. Having both of them reduces that 2.77 to a 1.54, which means an extra wych will survive to attack the firewarriors in CC (where WE have a massive advantage instead of them).



@callofdoobie wrote:
Incubi got nerfed but they are still good, AP3 klaives are a joke, and now the fact they are usually ran in smaller squads is gonna make the few times overwatch kills one hurt that much more. However, they will still chop a marine squad to bits along with anything that doesn't have 2+ armor or FNP. Their high cost however coupled with their now more limited array of uses just makes them another elite choice we have that isn't as good as trueborn.

Succubi(who I thought were gonna get better in 6th) are now as bad of an HQ choice as Decapitator.

Sliscus isn't really worth it anymore cause CD's are worthless(even though they are suppose to be our treat for not being able to take psykers....)

I agree about incubi, and I especially agree about not wanting them to die in overwatch. Which is why I like using the dual charge. Let the wyches/something else tank the overwatch, and let the incbui charge in afterwards.

No oppinion on succubi really, doesn't seem TERRIBLE, but seems inferior to a homunculus/archon/unique character.

I completely disagree about sliscus. Not only is he better in close combat then a standard archon IMO (because of super combat drugs and having 2 poisened super-rending weapons), but armywide combat drugs are still the thing that gives our wyches an edge against marines during CC (that and the 4+ invulnerable save, take THAT grey knights!). As long as you can get your units into CC, combat drugs are still good. Overwatch is deadly, yes, but if we take steps to minimize the damage it does (through dual charge to tank overwatch and tie them up in CC with a less valuable unit), we WILL still see close combat.



@callofdoobie wrote:
GW guy 1-"we're getting a lot of complaints from marine players that dark eldar are beating them in close combat"
Everyone in room- ::Gasp::, "O the horror", ::one women in the back begins to cry::
GW Guy 2- ::stands up and pounds fist on the table:: "WE MUST PUT A STOP TO THIS!! Everyone knows our game is suppose to be fair and balanced as long as you play a race we like"
GW Guy 3- "I know who do these stupid dark eldar players think they are? They are lucky we even updated their book that one time!"
GW Guy 1- "Don't worry everyone I have a plan!! First we make everything cause a str 4 hit; they're ship blows up? Str 4 hit, they stub their toe? Str 4 hit, They look at a grot funny? Str 4 hit"
GW Guy 2- "I like it; and then we can let ppl shoot any unit that is charging at it so those stupid wyches will get shot to bits"
GW Guy 3- "We'll teach them what happens to races we don't like!! 'Nids are still pulling stitches out of their stupid bio mass butt holes"
Everyone-"MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I LOVE MARINES AND GUARD SOOOO MUCH MWAHAHAHAHAHA

Meanwhile you have armies that can field 9 or more flyers, bikers that can take a lascannon to the face and still keep coming, large blast barrages that do full str hits even if it nips the back spike sticking off of your hull. Fair and balanced.....rofl....

This is what I'm talking about when I say I love wrecking marines more then any other army. They think that their so tough, hiding behind bolters, power armor, and the "And they shall know no fear" special rule. My wyches/wracks are fighting in their BARE SKIN, and still winning. U MAD SPESS MEHREENS???!!!



@callofdoobie wrote:
Ok i'm obviously a little bitter here but for reals; if you wanna win with DE now you spam Venoms or Gunboats....we had a good 2 year run where we could have a nice variety of list builds and enjoy the codex(and we could ::gasp:: beat imperial guard....how crazy?), now we are relegated to a one trick pony once more...shoot poison and lances, rinse/wash/repeat........

I can understand your frustration, I'm used to playing characters that get nerfed for dumb reasons in fighting games. And I learned to play 40k at the end of 5th editions lifespan, so I got to see what dark eldar was like before the 6th nerfs. I just feel like its important that we keep assaulting as long as its still viable, and I DO THINK its still viable. I mean, if the DARK ELDAR, one of the two posterboy armies of non-marine-based assault (the other being orks), can't make close combat work, then what does that say about the game itself? Yes, kabalite warriors in venoms/raiders is strong. Not arguing against that. I just think its still possible to have some variety in your troops choices, and still win. Wracks and wyches are still strong, you just have to use them differently then in fifth edition.



@Enfernux wrote:
@lordzero: love your av Very Happy aaaaaand...your example with the wych tacs are horribly off. 1) if you stay on this tac, use the haem to take up initial damage, 2) to few wyches, 3) why didnt you weaken the squad?

I was simply trying to show an example of how to dual charge to maximize our chances of getting INTO close combat, which seems like the most common complaint for dark eldar players these day. I figured adding extra information that didn't directly support my case would just increase the chances of people not understanding what I was trying to say. Obviously a smart dark eldar player would weaken the marines with volleys of splinterfire, plasma grenades, Arcane weapons, and liquifier gun templates before charging in. Fair fights are no fun. (:<



@Mushkilla wrote:
1)Raider explode, it's a DE fact that everyone walks home. However when they do explode they leave a nice bit of area terrain for you, giving you a 4+ save with a PGL (a 3+ save if you go to ground, defensive grenades don't work when you go to ground). Fleet makes you better at charging through terrain (charging through difficult terrain with fleet is better then charging in the open without fleet). Raiders tend to die anyway, you might as well try and crash it as close to the enemy as possible, why? Well assuming marines and other shooty things this means they can't get out of your 8" stealth bubble. It means you will be able to charge them without first moving out of your crater (therefore getting a better cover save against overwatch). If the wych unit that got shot down contains an archon, your opponent might decide to focus a lot of his fire onto that one unit, all you do now is go to ground and take it on a 3+ cover save, this can help keep the rest of your army safe. Finally the exploding raider might do some damage to the enemy unit near by, not reliable, but every little helps.

Great tactic (anything that boosts wych durability is a plus, and we can assault even after the vehicle is destroyed thanks to the wording of the Assault Vehicle rule). However, I feel that driving the raider right next to a marine squad and waiting for it to get destroyed is a little too risky, considering how fragile we are, and considering we have nightshields. I see this as more of a tactic to use against Devastator style units then tactical marines since devastators have long range and ignore our nightshield benefits when were trying to get close to assault.



@Mushkilla wrote:
2) The other thing I have learn't to do is use a unit to screen my wyches. This could be another wych squad, but most of the time it's my reavers. You can then charge the screening unit in as well if you want (the enemy will already be tied up so can't overwatch)

Are you sure this is legal? On page 21 of the BRB, it says that charging models cannot move through friendly models. And you can't use the eldar jetbike 2d6 assault move in between overwatch and the charge, as far as I can tell. (Page 20 lists the order you do things when declaring a charge. EJB 2d6 move seems like something you would do in the fight sub-phase, or in place of their own charge, either before or after a separate wych charge)



@Mushkilla wrote:
3) Another option is to use tougher units like reavers (T4 4+ cover) and incubi (T3 3+ armour) to "tank" the overwatch and tie up the unit.

I'd only ever use reavers to tank overwatch if the lance/blaster/talon/caltrop owner is dead and all you have left is regular bladevane reavers. However, if that's the case, GO FOR IT. Using leftover reavers to tank overwatch is a fantastic use of them. Incubi, not so much IMO. You take incubi for the powerweapons and the carnage they wreck upon marines, not the 3+ save. You want someone ELSE to tank the overwatch for the incubi, not the other way around.



@Mushkilla wrote:
4) Finally use depleted squads to attempt to draw out overwatch.

In this picture the lone wyche on the right charges the grey knights, the player decided not to overwatch as she is 10" away, however she makes the charge, preventing the grey knights from overwatching and as a result protecting the other wyches from getting overwatched.

Agree completely. On an unrelated note, I'm a big fan of your battle reports. (:



@xzandrate wrote:
I think the opinion and perception is slightly skewed. Overall, we did take alot of minor nerfs that all combine to feel like a bigger nerf, but it just diversified our CC more.

The opinion that dark eldar CC sucks isn't true. The idea that wyches suck much more is may be a little more concise. Wyches went from being arguably one of the best CC units in the game, to being average. The reason is obvious. Before Assault + wyches = god, Shooting + wyches = swiss cheese wyches. Overwatch, no matter how unlikely it is to hit, leverages the biggest weakness of wyches in their best phase.

The raider points are valid, for now, as people move away from the melta and back to plasma, you'll see our raiders become more suvivable.


Agree, but I actually think that raiders are still plenty durable now. Sure if they get hit there most likely toast, but they can avoid hits easily with jink and nightshields. We shouldn't have to wait for the resurgence in plasma, since nightshields makes melta a non-issue for the most part. (most people take standard meltaguns with 12 inch range instead of multi-meltas with 24 inch range.)



@xzandrate wrote:
In the mean time, I've found more success in a Dark Footdar hybrid list, heavy assault units like Pain Engines and Grotesques, and fast moving flankers in beasts and jetbikes.

Id actually be interested in seeing some battle reports with dark footdar. In my head, I just can't see how it would even work without our open-topped fast-skimmer transports. If your having success with it, that must mean its at least somewhat viable. Consider me intrigued. (:
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 05:28

Quote :
In this picture the lone wyche on the right charges the grey knights, the player decided not to overwatch as she is 10" away, however she makes the charge, preventing the grey knights from overwatching and as a result protecting the other wyches from getting overwatched.

I kinda not convinced that this is the case. The way it worded the Overwatch happens at the Charge Sub-Phase, while unit become locked in combat only in Fight Sub-Phase. That means that squad recieving the charge can chose who to overwatch, because he is not locked in combat yet, as it is not Fight Sub-Phase yet.

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grandlordzero
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 06:33

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
In this picture the lone wyche on the right charges the grey knights, the player decided not to overwatch as she is 10" away, however she makes the charge, preventing the grey knights from overwatching and as a result protecting the other wyches from getting overwatched.

I kinda not convinced that this is the case. The way it worded the Overwatch happens at the Charge Sub-Phase, while unit become locked in combat only in Fight Sub-Phase. That means that squad recieving the charge can chose who to overwatch, because he is not locked in combat yet, as it is not Fight Sub-Phase yet.

BRB, Page 23, under "Who Can Fight?"
Quote :

Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot. At the start of each Initiative step, you must work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also engaged, as described below.

Units do not become "locked in close combat" in the fight subphase, rather, models become "Engaged" in the fight subphase. The book makes no indication of which phase the close combat begins in, only that it begins when an enemy model is in base contact. Meaning all it takes is one model to pass its 2d6 charge and make it through overwatch to get in base contact and create a "Close Combat". In the fight subphase, you chose which close combat you created (during the charge phase) and then carry it out.

If I missed a rule that proves me wrong, please post the page number so that I can check it myself.

Also, not trying to be a jerk who argues with people, just trying to milk every advantage i can out of the rules to make dark eldar stronger.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 07:21

Quote :
The book makes no indication of which phase the close combat begins in
You are quoting from "Fight Sub-phase", thus making it rules only for that phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 07:49

I agree with all of Mushkilla's tactics. They all have their place when the opportunity presents itself. One additional tactic, which is perhaps a bit obvious, is to use the terrain that is already on the board, rather than creating your own. With the widely accepted terrain density rules, 6th edition gives us more control over our ability to find decent cover, whereas 5th edition saw a lot of wide open areas.

Charging through other types of area terrain is pretty much the same as the crater example, except that your vehicle doesn't have to blow up first.

Charging from behind solid terrain like hills, rubble, and walls gives a 4+ cover save, which becomes a 3+ with the phantasm gl. It also blocks sight of some of the models most times, so you know you're going to always have a certain number of them in the fight. The best way to use this is if the enemy unit uses the opposite side of the solid object first, so you can move up knowing you'll be in range of them. Just make sure you disembark so that some models can see their target (plural, you don't want to lose the one guy who can declare the charge).

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 09:20

@Krovin-Rezh: Some great points, the LoS one becomes comes in handy after the wyches wreck a rhino or two.


@grandlordzero wrote:

However, I feel that driving the raider right next to a marine squad and waiting for it to get destroyed is a little too risky, considering how fragile we are, and considering we have nightshields.

I agree there is a time and a place for it, if you think your raider is going to be toast anyway, it's well worth considering.

@grandlordzero wrote:

On page 21 of the BRB, it says that charging models cannot move through friendly models.

The key word is model, not unit, so as long as there is a gap you can move through, you can do it (it was like this in 5th too).

@grandlordzero wrote:

On an unrelated note, I'm a big fan of your battle reports. (:

Thanks! Glad you like them. Razz

The reason why I think DE assault is still useful is that the three "top tier" armies necrons, GK and IG are all pretty terrible in CC (apart from very specific builds). Assault the shooty, and shoot the assaulty is my mantra.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 09:26

just a question: a gunzlinger archon is 6" away at max from the enemy, and will eventually charge...can that be considered cc? XD
if yes, than lets add this to the following lost: archon, zlinger, djin, sf, drugs+4blasterborn, dracon, blaspistol, vb, pgl
if not, then the list:
haems w grots and wracks
archon with incubi and bb
wyches, bm's
(?)hellions(?)

and ofc., all our named HQ are for CC: Vect, Drazhar, Urien, Malys, Lelith, Baron, Duke, Decapitator...

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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on the viability of close combat   Thoughts on the viability of close combat I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 05 2012, 10:05

Still building my (yes) wych cult, I have not played a single game as of yet, so I cannot really comment on strategy here. Just wanted to jump in and say thank you for your long post, strategy which I will start digesting once I have a decent army mounted up.

Being one of those incurable fluff dogs though, I just refuse to start choosing models I don't like (coven, mostly) or adapt to a game style I don't want (shooting lists, my IG army will do that just OK, and I don't need two of a kind, thank you very much) just because somebody at GW changed the rules. Yes, GW has made the trip downhill towards the land of more pounds sterling instead of more depth of experience, and no, I don't like that (the first White Dwarfs I read were filled to the point of bursting with great stories and thrilling battle reports, now it is just 'buy these mini's!'), but but but... I chose this army to play it in a certain way (all out speed and attack) and that is the way I'll play it even if it means losing now and then...

We will see somewhere end 2012, begin 2013 if indeed the humble knife armed wych is indeed as doomed as you all seem to suggest, when I actually play them. Please forgive me if before I stick my fingers into my ears and go 'blah blah blah I don't hear you': dashing knife thrusts I want, and dashing knife thrusts I'll have.
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