THE DARK CITY
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.



 
HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityRegisterLog in

 

 Classification of a 'Unit'

Go down 
+3
Fruz
Darkgreen Pirate
1++
7 posters
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
1++
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1036
Join date : 2011-06-27
Location : Sydney

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 23:48

Just wondering if anyone has noticed in 6th if a transport is or is not considered part the unit embarked, and can benefit from special rules? I'm thinking Vect's Preferred Enemy, does it confer to his ride (Raider/Dias) and Lady Malys Precognition ability to her ride?


_________________
"I'm alive from this pain!"
Back to top Go down
Darkgreen Pirate
Sybarite
Darkgreen Pirate

Posts : 302
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : The Great White North

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 01:59

afaik, a unit and its transport are seperate, however they temporarily occupy the same space. I think of it this way; a unit can shoot at a different target than its transport, normally a feat reserved for seperate units (save certain spacewolves) so they would count as seperate units. Would be nice to have the Dukes poison extend to the venom he rides in though.....

_________________
“If an injury is to be done to an enemy, it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared”
- Archon Niccolò Machiavelli
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 09:34

No it can't, vehicule doesn't profit from a unit special rule. A unit can embark in it, but they are 2 different entities, since you can shoot 2 different targets as mentionned by Darkgreen Pirate and since you can disembark/embark anyone able to fit in a t ransport.
Back to top Go down
tlronin
Wych
avatar

Posts : 818
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : The Netherlands

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 13:13

Maybe you are confused by the Reserves rules? Where it states, when you calculate half of your army, you count the unit and their dedicated transport as a single unit P.124.

_________________
Archon of the kabal of The Bleeding Hand.
Member of local Dutch community: http://www.sweetlakesentinels.nl
Back to top Go down
1++
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1036
Join date : 2011-06-27
Location : Sydney

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 11:29

I could be. Or maybe trying to make something out of nothing LOL

_________________
"I'm alive from this pain!"
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 15:05

Hello

I personnaly consider that a transport is a different unit than the models he is transporting.

BUT, I would like to know if someone has found a rule that states it.
In fact, the rule book says that a same unit A can't fire on models who got their transport destroyed/wrecked by A.

So basically, I need a reference in the rulebook that states that a transport is a separate unit, so that if I blow up a vehicle with a trueborn ( or even 5 kabalite warriors troop with a blaster ), I can shoot 12 poisonned shot with the venom right after on the models coming out from it.

Please don't come to say that it's the case if you don't have the reference or something, and I know already that a transport can shoot at another target than the models it is transporting.
Back to top Go down
Darkgreen Pirate
Sybarite
Darkgreen Pirate

Posts : 302
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : The Great White North

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 15:39

@Fruz wrote:
Hello

I personnaly consider that a transport is a different unit than the models he is transporting.

FAQ and BRB rules support this, so we are in agreement here.

@Fruz wrote:
BUT, I would like to know if someone has found a rule that states it.
In fact, the rule book says that a same unit A can't fire on models who got their transport destroyed/wrecked by A.

Actually this interpretation is incorrect. P.80 of the BRB states
warhammer 40K Rulebook wrote:
"as all models in a single unit fire simultaneously, a squad cannot wreck a transport and then fire at its occupants. However, if a transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit that shot at it that turn, can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers"
So what this is saying in essence is that all models in the squad fire at the transport as one and at the same time; no Hekatrix wrecking a rhino with her blast pistol and the wyches shooting the disembarked passengers or a melta marine blowing up a raider and the kabalites inside getting rapid fire boltered. Its an awkward wording but GW is somewhat famous for that, and for these awkward wordings not translating well into languages other than english.

@Fruz wrote:
So basically, I need a reference in the rulebook that states that a transport is a separate unit, so that if I blow up a vehicle with a trueborn ( or even 5 kabalite warriors troop with a blaster ), I can shoot 12 poisonned shot with the venom right after on the models coming out from it.

p.78, brb, transports declares passengers may fire at different target than the vehicle, and p127, purge the alien clarifies that dedicated transports and independant characters are individual units that award victory points. The unit disembarking is now a viable target as per p.12 of the brb (shooting).

So, Trueborn wreck rhino, marines get out and possibly take pinning test, Venom delivers poison goodness. All legal.

_________________
“If an injury is to be done to an enemy, it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared”
- Archon Niccolò Machiavelli
Back to top Go down
Blind_Baku
Kabalite Warrior
Blind_Baku

Posts : 201
Join date : 2012-07-19

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 15:42

"Note that the passengers can shoot at a different target to the vehicle itself" BRB Pg 78, Column 2, Paragraph 2, about half way through the Paragraph
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 18 2012, 15:52

Sorry for quoting the last sentence of my previous post, but :

@Fruz wrote:
Please don't come to say that it's the case if you don't have the reference or something, and I know already that a transport can shoot at another target than the models it is transporting.

Only that is not enough to state that both are different units when the unit is being within it's transport.
Is says "single unit", but I would need a proof that transport + passengers are 2 units.

I will look p127 for "purge the Alien" to confirm my point, thank you ;-) ( and the p12 in addition ).
Back to top Go down
Blind_Baku
Kabalite Warrior
Blind_Baku

Posts : 201
Join date : 2012-07-19

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 16:33

Got nothing for you then, sorry. I've just always been told and operated as if Vehicle =/= the unit in it, kind of like how Units in a trasport don't score, or how some powers cannot be used from within transport, etc...
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 16:43

@Fruz wrote:
Hello

I personnaly consider that a transport is a different unit than the models he is transporting.

BUT, I would like to know if someone has found a rule that states it.
In fact, the rule book says that a same unit A can't fire on models who got their transport destroyed/wrecked by A.

So basically, I need a reference in the rulebook that states that a transport is a separate unit, so that if I blow up a vehicle with a trueborn ( or even 5 kabalite warriors troop with a blaster ), I can shoot 12 poisonned shot with the venom right after on the models coming out from it.

Please don't come to say that it's the case if you don't have the reference or something, and I know already that a transport can shoot at another target than the models it is transporting.

Just out of interest, why would you need a rules quote to tell you this? If they weren't two separate units then when you destroyed the vehicle, the 'non-unit' inside would be destroyed too.

_________________
Classification of a 'Unit' YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 17:00

Rules when a transport is destroyed/wrecked are clearly written in the rulebook, there can"t be any mistake about this.
It is really the fact that nothing states that they are 2 different units at all ( I looked for it and noone is able to find that ), and that the shooting rule about a transport when it explodes says that this unit can't fire at the passenger. So, unless the transport is another one, it can't shoot on it.
That is why I am looking for a statement, but it seems that there isn't any =(.

I'll probably mail the FAQ for that.
Back to top Go down
Darkgreen Pirate
Sybarite
Darkgreen Pirate

Posts : 302
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : The Great White North

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 17:22

I think you are misinterpreting the rule. again, for clarification;
warhammer 40K Rulebook wrote:
"as all models in a single unit fire simultaneously, a squad cannot wreck a transport and then fire at its occupants. However, if a transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit that shot at it that turn, can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers"


Single unit. As in the unit that blew-up/wrecked the transport and forced the unit inside to disembark. That unit, and only that unit, cannot fire at the disembarked passengers. Any other unit that has not yet fired that turn can fire on the now disembarked unit, as per p12.

This rule exists because some armies, like spacewolves and Tau, have the ability to split fire between two different targets. So the rule says all models fire at the same time to avoid one squad member wrecking a transport and the rest of the squad firing AFTER the vehicle is destroyed at the recently disembarked passengers.

Whether or not units that fired at the transport can assault the disembarked passengers is really irrelevant to your question; The models are on the table, you have units that can see them, those units have not fired this shooting phase, they can now fire at the disembarked unit. For what constitutes a valid target and who can and cannot shoot start at p12, shooting.

As Count Adhemar said, if they were considered a single unit when the transport blew up you would never place the occupants.

_________________
“If an injury is to be done to an enemy, it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared”
- Archon Niccolò Machiavelli
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 18:24

I know the logic of it ( as obvious as it is ), but I don't mix logic and rules.
Those are 2 different things ( some rules are illogic ).

You are not bringing anything new here, sorry for saying that.
The thing is, I decided to play like that with my friends as this is the best way to us to play.
BUT, nothing clearly allows to speak of the passengers as another unit than the vehicle transporting them.
Some pieces of the BRB make us think that it is the case, but nothing says it, that why I asked it.

But I clearly see that as noone found enyting like it, I can make the assumption that there is no such statement in the rule book.

Quote :
As Count Adhemar said, if they were considered a single unit when the transport blew up you would never place the occupants.
that is completely wrong, that comes out of nowhere and makes no sense.
Transports have their own rules, where it describes exactly how passenger react to wreacked/destroyed transport. that's just all there is to say about that.
Back to top Go down
tlronin
Wych
avatar

Posts : 818
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : The Netherlands

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 18:43

@Fruz wrote:
I know the logic of it ( as obvious as it is ), but I don't mix logic and rules.
Those are 2 different things ( some rules are illogic ).

You are not bringing anything new here, sorry for saying that.
The thing is, I decided to play like that with my friends as this is the best way to us to play.
BUT, nothing clearly allows to speak of the passengers as another unit than the vehicle transporting them.
Some pieces of the BRB make us think that it is the case, but nothing says it, that why I asked it.

But I clearly see that as noone found enyting like it, I can make the assumption that there is no such statement in the rule book.

Quote :
As Count Adhemar said, if they were considered a single unit when the transport blew up you would never place the occupants.
that is completely wrong, that comes out of nowhere and makes no sense.
Transports have their own rules, where it describes exactly how passenger react to wreacked/destroyed transport. that's just all there is to say about that.

Maybe you should mix logic and rules.

The rulebook never say they aren't 2 seperate units for all purposes untill you come to the reserve rules. Only thén the rulebook speaks of counting them as 1 unit.

So I think the question is, why whould you think the passengers and transport are 1 unit while following the rules?

_________________
Archon of the kabal of The Bleeding Hand.
Member of local Dutch community: http://www.sweetlakesentinels.nl
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 18:50

the reserve rule is a good example you already said.
The fact that the transport is assigned to the unit and does not figure in the list is also a bit confusing here ( count as one unit when you make your list ).

I just wanted to make sure that noone could ever tell me I'm not allowed to fire at passenger with my venom after destroying the transport with the trueborns inside.
Apparently, someone could as there is no rule, that's all.

Back to top Go down
tlronin
Wych
avatar

Posts : 818
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : The Netherlands

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 19:01

Fruz,

Your wrong amigo. When you take a dedicated transport is ónly doesn't take up an additional slot on the FOC. That's all 'dedicated' means, nothing else. But it still counts as a seperate unit, even when making your list.

I asked you to point out in the rulebook (other than the reserves rule) where all of a sudden passengers and transport vehicles are 1 unit. Provide a page reference and you've got a point. Right now IMHO you don't.

So, no. Noone can tell you that you are not allowed to fire at the passengers with your Venom after destroying their transport with the trueborn, because:

1) The rulebook tells you explicitly you can (too lazy to search up the page in the rulebook but it's there).

2) There is not a single instance in the rulebook saying that they are 1 unit (except the reserves rule).

I hope this makes it more clear to you.

_________________
Archon of the kabal of The Bleeding Hand.
Member of local Dutch community: http://www.sweetlakesentinels.nl
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 19:04

Quote :
I asked you to point out in the rulebook (other than the reserves rule) where all of a sudden passengers and transport vehicles are 1 unit. Provide a page reference and you've got a point. Right now IMHO you don't.
And then I ask you to find a statement that says that they are two separate unit ( not using logic, a statement, a rule ).
you can't ( as I can't answer your question ) => dead end.

But I agree that's it's the way it should be played.
Back to top Go down
tlronin
Wych
avatar

Posts : 818
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : The Netherlands

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 19:27

The rulebook is explicit. It's the fundamental way the rulebook works. In this case all models (or a squad of models) are seperate units, untill the rulebook explicitly tells you they are not.

But I believe we'll reach a dead end again. But not for the reason you gave though...

_________________
Archon of the kabal of The Bleeding Hand.
Member of local Dutch community: http://www.sweetlakesentinels.nl
Back to top Go down
Mushkilla
Arena Champion
Mushkilla

Posts : 4017
Join date : 2012-07-16
Location : Toroid Arena

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 19:40

tlronin is right the rule book is explicit/permisive and no where does it ever say that a transport and a unit are not two different units. In fact the only time it tells you to treat them a single unit is for the purpose of reserves.

_________________
Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 19:51

I found my statement at the end : with every other units, in every codex in the list choice ( unit type : vehicule ).
It's somehow thanks to tlronin.
thx guys.

And it's not because something is not said in the rulebook that the opposite is true btw :p.
Back to top Go down
tlronin
Wych
avatar

Posts : 818
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : The Netherlands

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 20:06

@Fruz wrote:
I found my statement at the end : with every other units, in every codex in the list choice ( unit type : vehicule ).
It's somehow thanks to tlronin.
thx guys.

And it's not because something is not said in the rulebook that the opposite is true btw :p.

You're welcome?

And that is not what me, nor Mushkilla, nor Darkgreen Pirate, nor Count claimed, for the record.

_________________
Archon of the kabal of The Bleeding Hand.
Member of local Dutch community: http://www.sweetlakesentinels.nl
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 20:13

[quote]no where does it ever say that a transport and a unit are not two different units.[quote]
Quote :
I asked you to point out in the rulebook (other than the reserves rule) where all of a sudden passengers and transport vehicles are 1 unit. Provide a page reference and you've got a point. Right now IMHO you don't.
Quote :
The rulebook never say they aren't 2 seperate units for all purposes untill you come to the reserve rules
just 3 quotes, in every one of them, you want to prove me that I'm wrong by jsut saying that it never say that passenger+dedicated transport = 1 single unit.
and my point is, it never says it, which doesn't proove that the opposte is true.
That's all, I think we should really stop there now that I have my answer.
Back to top Go down
Mushkilla
Arena Champion
Mushkilla

Posts : 4017
Join date : 2012-07-16
Location : Toroid Arena

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 20:25

Your completely missing the point of what everyone is trying to tell you Fruz.

Is a unit of warriors is a single unit? Yes.
Is a transport a single unit? Yes.
If I have a transport and a unit of warriors how many units do I have? Two.
If I stick a unit of warriors in a transport, how many units do you have? Two.

Why because the rule book defines what a unit is. A squad of warriors is a unit, a raider is a unit, we have two units. And at no point does it tell us that a unit embarked on a transport is a single unit (except in the case of reserves). It's nothing to do with "the opposite being true", it's to do with what the rule book has already specifically told us when it defined units.

Hope that makes it clearer! Very Happy

_________________
Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
Back to top Go down
Fruz
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 143
Join date : 2012-06-28

Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 19 2012, 20:29

Quote :

Is a transport a single unit? Yes.
That's the thing I was asking since the beginning and finnaly found in he codec, without that, there wasn't anything really relevant.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Classification of a 'Unit' Empty
PostSubject: Re: Classification of a 'Unit'   Classification of a 'Unit' I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Classification of a 'Unit'
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Rules: Queries & Questions
-
Jump to: