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 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help

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zergavas
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PostSubject: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 17:45

So Basically im getting crushed under the boot of the Imperium.
I always get to face off against a Infantry based IG list and there sheer numbers are to much.
I like to stay shooty and stay moving but usaly they have Basilisk´s that ceeps blowing me up, and trying to get in with something fast and AT usually fails due to overwelming firepower comming my way, i have tried to engage in melee with Wynches instead but that just ends in me killing or getting the enemy squad to run and my wynches getting blown to bitts.
Anyone have some nice tricks in putting the infantry IG armys to shame? Prefferebly in a fast shooting way.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 18:14

since 6th ed, everyone wants to be shooty. Khaine tell me, why?

on topic: well, basically with our paper armor, both for infantry and vehicles, we can not stand up against the furepower of the imperium.
If you want to assault anything, build an army around it, or not at all as i've experienced it. Balanced lists fell apart in front of my specialist army. The only trouble i had are green tide, and not because they are that good, its because of the sheer number of'em and the bs2 being moded for h.weapons to bs1 isnt a big drop - lootaz to the rescue XD
There are certain armies you cant overshoot: IG and Tau. Where you can easily kill Tau in cc, IG have some nasties for that to - powerfist, powerweapon, etc.

If you want a shooty army, and be cheep, go IG, Tau, and sometimes orkz. Eldar require great tactical abilities.

If you want to smack IG in the face: Vect, Incubi, Haems, Blasterborn, Wyches, wracks, ravagers/rwjf, reavers.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 18:49

First off a basic list to build off of is always nice.

But basically foot guard are easy. Use your Lances to down his artillery early on, and then venom the crap out of him as he footslogs up. If he has HWTs, aim for them first, as they will do more damage than lasguns. Also remember being AV10 means lasguns cant hurt you, so use that to your advantage (move say... a sacrifical venom up to block his way)

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 20:49

Reaver Jet Bikes are great at horde killing too if you can turbo boost over them. Grav-Talon's work since I think it would be easier to pin IG or Cluster Caltrops for more hits against IG. Only downside is they are expensive in the pts department. otherwise I would agree with Shadow.


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alexwellace
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 21:19

Cluster caltrops are fun vs IG heavy weapon teams, 2 wounds and long rage you say there guardsmen? *ZOOM!!!!* Eat strength 6*SPLAT*. points made back.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 23:29

@alexwellace wrote:
Cluster caltrops are fun vs IG heavy weapon teams, 2 wounds and long rage you say there guardsmen? *ZOOM!!!!* Eat strength 6*SPLAT*. points made back.

only IF the random wound allocation gives them the s6, and they have an armorsave against it, or coversaves, if they are in a ruin, that you have to roll for to pass by

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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 00:01

Against IG everything is important. From list building, to playing to terrain placement!

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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 02:37

List building and execution are key. Manticores ruin our day, but if you can shoot one then boost everything to within its min firing range to then haywire on T2

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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 05:51

I too have been having trouble against guard. The closest I came the other night was losing 9 pts to 8 in a big guns never tire match. It is no longer a no brainer to just get up in their face and assault. Overwatch DOES make a huge difference (squads of 20 firing over watch ruin wyches and warriors). The only army more inherently difficult for Dark Eldar to face are Tau. Here is what I ran against Guard the other night, and came close to a victory. I am confident I can win with this list but I have to be very precise with moving my raiders around. There is no easy way to beat IG or Tau with Dark Eldar this edition. You have to have the perfect list, have good terrain, and be absolutely precise tactically on the board and then you at least have a chance. Even then its tough.

Roughly I was using 2 Haemonculus w/ liquifiers, 5 warrior squads in raiders (3 10 man squads and 2 9 man for the haemoncs to ride in) Talos, and 2 Ravagers. The talos worked great I thought about using two but I need those dark lances in and Im afraid to drop those dark Lance shots.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 07:40

C'mon! Everyones saying its hard to IG and Tau...half of my opponents are those two!
A squad of 20 firin lasguns ruines wyches...yes.
a) weaken the squad to an acceptable amount of models
1b) cover-charge with wyches through a nother unite, geting a CS
2b) charge with incubi
c) massacre!

the problem: hotshot lasguns s3 ap3...well...you cant win'em all, covercharge
Say they have an ld of 9 with a leader, so they can stick around very good.
They are a unite of 10 with a 5up armor and cover.
1 mono bull, 1mono scatter, hitting 10+8 mods - i am rolling these now ^^ i will do a mathammer and a real roll for it.
MH: 18 hit 15 wound, 5up cover that is 10 down. What, i have PG with wches and pistols? Let'er rip! 8 pistols 1g, hitting 3.5 with it so in total thats 8.83 hits
5 wounds, 5up cover tha is a nother 3.33 down, making it 13.33 minus guards. 7 guards, even with hotshot arent that much of a threat. 14 shots, mean 2 hit, 1 wounds and thanks to pgl, 5up, 0.77, and fnp 0.518 unsaved

oh my, im scared stiff-.-

meh i wont roll off these, ima gona haz me sum sammiches fo breakfast

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 13:38

@Enfernux wrote:
@alexwellace wrote:
Cluster caltrops are fun vs IG heavy weapon teams, 2 wounds and long rage you say there guardsmen? *ZOOM!!!!* Eat strength 6*SPLAT*. points made back.

only IF the random wound allocation gives them the s6, and they have an armorsave against it, or coversaves, if they are in a ruin, that you have to roll for to pass by

Actually, don't you remove closest models first? Thus with reavers, those closest to your end point in your fly by (often in the back of the unit).
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 13:55

no, those damages are distributed randomly

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 14:03

@Enfernux wrote:
no, those damages are distributed randomly

Got a reference for that?

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 14:22

BRB? Randomisation, split up the squad in to groups of 6s, roll for what squad gets 6 of the damage, do this for every group of 6 damages, roll d6 for what model gets it.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 14:31

@Enfernux wrote:
BRB? Randomisation, split up the squad in to groups of 6s, roll for what squad gets 6 of the damage, do this for every group of 6 damages, roll d6 for what model gets it.

I think he means a reference for where it says that this is how you resolve wounds from bladevanes/cluster caltrops.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 14:33

as usual, i am at work and i dont have the space to bring with me the BRB, try searching for wound allocation, random wound distribution or something - aka try to be creative and use logic, for there were a lot of stuff missed when whe were even talking about it...and it is my job to be the Red Mage of my team ^^

be creative, i just googled and youtubed for 10 minutes and vuala: its on OUR OWN FORUM!

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t3651-the-reaver-randomization-rollercoaster

edit vol2: im jost so sick and tired that ppl with access to the internet and/or better acces to the rules want a nother person to help them find a rule. You will never learn this way! When a rule was on debate with the friends we usually went through all the pages of rules that are connected, sometimes taking us about 2 hours, but in the process we read and read the same rules more and then we will have to refer to them less and less!

sry guys, i just needed to blow off some steam.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 14:44

As it stands they are resolved randomly, but using common sense and the Chaos Daemon official update "Slashing attack" as reference/precedence:

Quote :

If a unit of screamer moves over one or more unengaged enemy units with its Turbo-boost movement, choose one of those units - it suffers D3 Strength 4 hits with AP- per Screamer that moved over it. Use the final position of the Screamers for wound allocation... - Chaos Daemon Official Update Page 4

It is pretty safe to assume that bladevane attacks will be FAQed the same way seeing as they are almost identical. Most opponents are OK with using the same wound allocation. If they are not, they will be after you try to randomize 60+ bladevane attacks (which can take a long time!).

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 16:07

@Enfernux wrote:
as usual, i am at work and i dont have the space to bring with me the BRB, try searching for wound allocation, random wound distribution or something - aka try to be creative and use logic, for there were a lot of stuff missed when whe were even talking about it...and it is my job to be the Red Mage of my team ^^

be creative, i just googled and youtubed for 10 minutes and vuala: its on OUR OWN FORUM!

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t3651-the-reaver-randomization-rollercoaster

edit vol2: im jost so sick and tired that ppl with access to the internet and/or better acces to the rules want a nother person to help them find a rule. You will never learn this way! When a rule was on debate with the friends we usually went through all the pages of rules that are connected, sometimes taking us about 2 hours, but in the process we read and read the same rules more and then we will have to refer to them less and less!

sry guys, i just needed to blow off some steam.

Really? Wow... Over react much? I see no reason to search for randomization as it has almost no bearing on this issue IMO.

The fact is I DID read the rule book, FAQ, codex and can find nothing saying you randomize the wounds. In fact I would assume that you use the final position of the Reavers to work out the allocation as you pick the target after completing the move... And that's before I saw the daemon FAQ. I at no point asked you more than was relevant having checked the rules myself - I thought I had missed something and sought clarification as you might have seen something I missed and as the rules are still new it seemed possible. Fact is that you have no basis in the rules that I can see that you randomize the blade vanes wounds and with the daemon FAQ falling on my side of reasoning... Well...

All you had to say was that you were under the impression they randomized and did not have access to the rules at the time and would check it later. I would have come back with the relevant quotes from blade vanes and site that nothing says to randomize and eventually we probably would have gotten to the daemon FAQ as a precedent and while that's not the best way to determin the correct way, in this case it's the closest thing we have.

This would have kept things civil

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: 0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help   0 Sucessfull raids against The Imperial Guard... I need help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 16:36

MOD hat on.

Quote :
edit vol2: im jost so sick and tired that ppl with access to the internet and/or better acces to the rules want a nother person to help them find a rule. You will never learn this way! When a rule was on debate with the friends we usually went through all the pages of rules that are connected, sometimes taking us about 2 hours, but in the process we read and read the same rules more and then we will have to refer to them less and less!

sry guys, i just needed to blow off some steam.

Gents, please refrain from venting or blowing off steam. it is considered rude, at the very least by me, which is more than enough.

We can agree to disagree with throwing around blanket statements. Poor actions will lead to equally poor reactions.

MOD hat off.


Back to the orignal post.

Foot guard can be tough. Tailoring a list to beat purely foot guard is also a bad idea, at least in a competitive sense.

My thoughts are as follow

Make use of wracks to initiate the assault. a unit of 10 or so equiped with 2 Liquifier guns can shred some numbers, then hit them with the assault. have a unit of wyches or CC unit De Jour to launch the 2nd assault. Point is, wrack soak up all the firepower, and have a decent chance to survive. Then the second unit hits without having to absorb the overwatch shooting.

Also, venoms will be your friends. Night shields will nerf most incoming shooting keeping you safely out of range while you whittle away the numbers. 6 or 7 venoms wiill drag IG blobs down crazy fast, making the assault more managable.

Raiders to transport those big wrack and assault units can double with lances to lance death armor. Glancing is our friend now.

Also for consideration is a good sized unit of Grotesques with a hamie. Ad din a few LGs and you are off to the races. T5 with 3 wounds each is going to be hard to stop with a boltgun, let alone a lasgun, and there is not much that can instant death them.

Scourges with haywire can cause a lot of chaos for parking lot armor.

My thoughts.

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