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 Talos and Cronos vs Ravager

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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 20:45

Hi all,


I am kind of new in the game and I was wondering which of our Heavy Choises are best (besides flyers) and why ?

I have been through a lot of army list and it seems that most of the players are using the Ravager. I know that the Ravager has a lot more firepower and faster but it made out of paper.... The talos and the Cronos can survive a lot more punishment (or that is what I think - I havent try them jet)... The Talos has AP2 attacks in assault (important in 6th edition) and the Cronos has a lot of AP3 weapons. Both look nice on paper and both can take the same amount of damage. ( Actually the Cronos, in theory, can survive a bit more since it gets a token faster than the Talos). But what are your experiences ? What weapons are you choosing for them? Are their survivalbility higher than the Ravager ? In my list I have a Ravager with DC and a voidraven but as for the third choise I just cant make up my mind.
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Setomidor
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 07:29

You're right on about the differences and properties of the units, and the (quite boring) answer to which is better is 'It depends' Smile

The low armour of the Ravager can be mitigated by running an army with a lot of similar targets; Raiders, Venoms, etc. By presenting many similar viable targets the enemy has to prioritise between picking at your long-range fire support or trying to wreck your incoming troop transports. For this reason, having one or two Ravagers in an otherwise low-vehicle list is a bad idea and then the Talos is probably a better choice.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 07:59

Not to insult you, but I can be sometimes a bit blunt... But why do people keep comparing 1 unit to the other? The answers you'll get are irrelevant. You know why? Because it's about the entire armylist. If a Talos fits better in that list, then take a Talos. If a Ravager fits in the list, then take a Ravager. This is basically what Setomidor ment with: "It depends". It's actually a good and solid answer. But still, let's write it out today. Why not. Wink

Why do people often depend on the Ravager for AT? It can move 12" and fire everything on BS4. By moving it gains a 5+ jinksave and when you can obscure 25% (which is not hard to do with a Ravager), add 1 up to that save. It's 12" move makes sure you can get a good clean angle at almost everything on the table, and it's 36" DLs make sure you can hit almost anything on the table. When you hit it's a S8 AP2 hit which makes from AV12+ a AV12 (this makes sure you do something on 4s minimum always). With HPs in 6th and 2 Ravagers in your list you are quite capable of wrecking a big AV14 vehicle a turn (due to it's huge potential to atleast glance stuff). In other words, it's usefull each turn untill is dies. Which is not hard to do for it's AV11/AV10. But on average 2 Ravagers in unison atleast wrecked two vehicles by turn 2.

Now how does the Talos fare compared to that (and we're talking in it's roll as AT)? It's far more sturdy than a Ravager with it's nice toughness and armoursave. But it's weapons have far less range, plus it can only move 6" a turn. This will 9 outta 10 times mean that the Talos will not do anything the 1st whole turn. And if your opponent is smart it'll be out of range perhaps even a 2nd turn. It has the potential to survive 1 or 2 turns, but in what state will it arrive? So... We need WWPs to mitigate the uselessness of a Talos in the 1st 2 turns. In 6th we can shoot out of a Portal, but not assault. Major nerf on the Talos and our army as a whole. Is the Talos useless, absolutely not...

And that is why we say, depends. It's my experience that I want to reliably cut down the opponents 'tanks' in te 1st 2 turns. I can't do this with a Talos. So I'll need the Ravager for that. I see Talos's role more as a massive AI monster. Errupting out of a Portal, decimating infantry with it's SC first, survive a turn. And assault the next turn. If you however go for the slow moving tougher army (in other words our 'Coven' variant) then by all means fill your heavy slots up with Talos/Chronos. But it's dynamics are véry different from regular DE and IMHO a WWP is mandatory in such a built.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 09:38

Most people will say that the Ravager is our best Heavy option and common net wisdom is therefore to spam Ravagers whenever possible. With the arrival of double FOC at 2000+ points, this become even easier as we can fill out the mandatory HQ and Troop slot for <100 points, and then take another 3 Ravagers! But several people have already said that the 'best' option depends on the rest of your army and the opponents you usually find yourself playing.

Personally I like to use a WWP and I include a Cronos in my reserves to bring on through the portal along with my melee units. I give the Cronos both shooting weapons and if I'm lucky enough to be in Template range of an opponent I should manage to get 2 pain tokens on the turn it arrives (3 if I manage to wipe out the target unit). The arrival of a Monstrous Creature tends to get some attention from my opponents and it therefore attracts a lot of shooting, which is not being aimed at my melee units or Ravagers. But with T7, 3 wounds, 3+ save and FNP it's pretty resilient! Plus, if it gets assaulted I get to overwatch with the template which may well get me another pain token! And it's no slouch in assault anyway. But you don't find a Cronos in many lists.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 14:04

The main thing is ( to me ), if you're not going to have a WWP ... forget the talos / chronos, right ? Sad
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Setomidor
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 14:08

Fruz; yes, pretty much. 6" move is simply too slow to keep up, and 3W is too few to walk by itself.

I don't mean to give us all false hope; but in the rumoured release schedule for 2013 there is an Eldar Webway Portal; I'm so hoping this is a Fortification for Eldar and Dark Eldar that brings WWPs back to usefulness.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 14:21

@Fruz: Wweell... If you like a challenge you could try without a WWP. Very Happy I guess a hybrid of 3 Talos/Chronos in your heavy section and lots of absurdly fast stuff like Reavers with Heatlances could be something. Harrass your opponent early on with the Reavers, untill the Talos get in range to clean up the rest. Go babysit objectives with your troops. Might work... It's just not ideal.

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Detharmonic
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 18:41

As others have stated, it depends on your list as a whole and what you're usually up against.

The talos isn't meant for taking out vehicles in the enemy deployment zone. It's really effective against armies that will be approaching you with transports. These armies usually want to close the gap as soon as they can. So the talos will be in range by turn 2, usually. Pop the transport, then you have a big threat standing in front of a vulnerable squad. This means the talos is useful even without a WWP. It's ability to draw fire is also invaluable.

It may be one of the most underrated units in our codex.

If you are looking for a little variety in your lists, the talos is definitely a good purchase. It's also a pleasure to model and paint. However, if you are looking to be super competitive and want cheese in your lists, another ravager is the way to go.
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steev
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 01:27

A talos does not need a WWP and they are not too slow!
In fact my talos usually get to the enemy before the rest of my army. I run 2 talos with haywire blasters and deploy them a good 6" in front of my fleet. I will occasionaly lose 1 in the first turn but typically these guys march into the heart of the enemy using haywire on big tanks and ruining anything they get to charge. Anytime my opponent shoots at them I am happy because they are not shooting down my boats. Do I miss the firepower of not running any ravagers? Sometimes, but not enough to make me go buy one.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 09:39

What is this HEAVY SUPPORT you speak of? (I have yet to use any heavy support choices this edition)

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thelordhellion
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 07:17

Talosi? Taloses? Tali? and Chronosi? Chronoses? Chroni? are now more durable with fnp almost (5++ save) and AP 2 is still important as many of our great armour chewers are long gone due to 6th ed. I'd say against what army, tank heavy? get ravager. Infantry heavy? Run the Talos/ Chronos

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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 11:49

@thelordhellion wrote:
Talosi? Taloses? Tali? and Chronosi? Chronoses? Chroni?
Talos Pain Engines/Chronos Parasite Engines is what I go with.

Personally, if I am playing a game that I really want to win I use Ravagers. They are fun to use, especially with Dissies and are effective at doing what they need to.
Recently I have started to use Talos Pain Engines and have found that they are not quite as reliable as the Ravager but deliver the extra mashing strength where you need it.
I will be experimenting with a mixture of two Pain Engines and a Dissie Ravager in my next few games to see how well that plays. The Ravager will be for dealing an early blow to a unit before a Talos swoops in and mops them up.

Otherwise I use them very much like Steev.

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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 31 2012, 16:37

It really does depend on what you are doing with your list.

If the Talos is the only tough thing you have, it can easily be focused down, 2 taloi make it a bit harder to deal with, throw in a squad of grotesques, with approaching wyches or incubi, and most firing lines don't know where to focus. As far as too slow, I'd say the Talos is slower than some of our units, but with the changes to vehicles, a pair of Taloi moving up the field can easily start wrecking vehicles with TL Haywire blasters.

I've been using paired Taloi and a flyer my last few games, and I honestly believe they are outperforming paired ravagers.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 01 2012, 00:35

I got a Talos a while ago, but haven't really used it much. I don't know why, seeing as on the odd times when I have, it's drawn more fire than my Ravager and achieved more too. I'm considering dropping my dark lance Ravager and replacing it with a Disintegrator one, as well as using the Talos in conjunction with a Cronos. The idea being that the Ravager and Talos work together wrecking stuff, whilst the Cronos hangs at the back to see off outflankers and deep strikers and guard objectives, as it can make the troops on them fearless very quickly, especially if they're wracks.

Mainly I'm just sick of the fact that the dark lance Ravager has never managed to blow up a vehicle. It's ridiculous!

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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 01 2012, 01:17

I have usually used 2 lance ravs and a rzwing. Come 6th I have dropped one rav... as wyches are amazing AT. The razorwing has become even more awesome, and I am considering building + painting my chronos because I want a more reliable way of giving my mandrakes a pain token.

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steev
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PostSubject: Re: Talos and Cronos vs Ravager   Talos and Cronos vs Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 01 2012, 01:40

Another thing to keep in mind is that with the changes to monstorous creatures, pain engines now get cover from area terrain. Add in night fight and you end up with rock solid units that can soak up an opponents entire first turn of shooting and live.
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