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 Allies, what are you using?

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 13:29

Personally I have found Daemons to be a great foil for DE.

I run a Herald of Tzeentch, 7 Horrors and a Soul Grinder with Phlegm.

These units allow me to D/S into the face of the enemy and shoot immediately at a key unit, whether it's warpfire or phlegm/vomit and harvester.
The grinder provides a tough 4 HP unit that takes more than a sneeze to fall over and the Horrors have that 4+ inv save that allows them to hang about longer than our warriors. These along with an Aegis line with quad gun have been working remarkably well recently.

So what, if anything are you using.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 13:41

eldar jetseer council, GJB and warwalkers.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 16:13

Eldar are really the only Ally I would ever take with them. The provide several key things we are missing. 1st off is psyker defense, which is awesome in its own right. 2nd is durable troops in the way of GJBs, as long as there is a worlock w/ Embolden, your not going anywhere. 3rd is S6 spam. Strength 6 is that oddball strength that works decently against both tanks and infantry. One of Eldar's last remaining strength is the amount of S6 you can pack into a small package (18 S6 shots for 120 pts... yes please Razz ) and it helps with opening up those small tin cans called razorbacks, while our lances worry about bigger things. The last thing is relatively cheap melta. A fire dragon for 16 pts is amazing point per cost ratio, and being able to field them makes tank hunting all that much easier imho.


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Drager
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 17:58

I run

HQ
Farseer, Runes of Warding, Prescience

Troops

5 Pathfinders

5 Pathfinders

Heavy Support

3 Warwalkers, 6 Scatter Lasers

Works really nicely.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 19:55

Is there a pattern developing here Shocked

Farseer, pathfinders and walkers was an option I was looking at but don't have the models yet. The advantages of those units is clear to see. Guess I hoped more people had strayed from the path.
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Drager
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 22:15

My secondary list I am building runs

HQ
Farseer
Jetbike, Singing Spear, Spirit Stones, Guide, Doom

3 Warlocks, Destructor, Singing Spear
1 Warlock, Enhance, Singing Spear
1 Warlock, Embolden, Singing Spear

Troops
6 Guardian Jetbikes
Warlock, Enhance
2 Shuriken Cannon

6 Guardian Jetbikes
Warlock, Enhance
2 Shuriken Cannon

Fast Attack
2 Vypers, 4 Shuriken Cannon

That's for my biker army, comes with 3 units of Reavers, 2 Planes, 3 units of Wracks in Venoms.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 12:22

Drager: GJB are NOT(!!!) a cc unite. Give them embolden, it works better
Also for troops: DA with bladestorm on a doomed target = massacre

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Drager
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 12:31

Yeah, that was a transcribing error. I don't like DAs. I like them less in a biker list. To clarify DAs are short range, expensive and slow. They don't fit this list.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 12:35

Have you ever used a wave serpent? DAs can take that y'know Cool

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Drager
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 16:30

More points and they have to disembark and are still slower than the rest of the army. I'd take Trueborn to fill that role instead if I wanted that sort of unit. They do it better, more reliably and from longer range.

Also how on earth to DAs in a transport fit my biker army?


Last edited by Drager on Fri Aug 24 2012, 16:39; edited 1 time in total
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 16:39

@Drager wrote:
More points and they have to disembark and are still slower than the rest of the army. I'd take Trueborn to fill that role instead if I wanted that sort of unit. They do it better, more reliably and from longer range.

slower? woth a 48" moving ability?
Do it better? BS4-BS4
Longer range? 18"-18"
Serpent f12s12r10 ct transport, reducing s8+ wapons to 8 on front and side, degrades melta half range from front and side, has a good turet mount, high transport capacity.
Venom 10 around, good weapons, open topped, flickerfield, low transport capacity

Wave serpent 90+turet+upgrades(usually none)
Venom 55+optionall cannon.

Lets compare:
Dire avengers: bs-ws4, s-t3, w1, i5, a1, ld9, sv4up 12pts
dire catapults 18" s4 ap5 assault2
Exarch with bladestorm and dual catapults - Model included - 44pts

Trueborn bs-ws4, s-t3, w1, i5, a2, ld9, sv5up 12pts
splinter carabines 18" 4+ ap5 assault3
splinter cannon 36" 4+ ap5 heavy6 or assault4 - 10pts
Drachon with the same amount of points worth of upgrades - Model included - ghostplate, blastpistol 42 pts.

Comparison 5v5 Shooting 92pts vs 110pts
DA: 12 shots 18" bs4 s4 ap5 5.33 almost unsaved, ghotsplate can negate a few.
Exarch: 5 shots 18" bs5 s4 ap5 2.78 almost unsaved, ghstplate can negate a few. Lets say these went to the drachon - for easier comparison - 1.38 unsaved

Trueborn 14 shots 18" bs4 4+ ap5 2.33 unsaved
Dracon lets say he kept the carabine 3 shots bs 5 4+ ap5 - again vs the exarch - 0.41 unsaved.
Dracon vol2 blast pistol 1 shot bs5 s8 ap2 0.69 unsavable.
92 pts vs 110 pts 6.71 unsaved vs 3.02 unsaved.

and seeing that you continue to think you can harm my DA with splinterfire before i pop your vehicle...but vice versa i can very much hurt you, 257 pts of DA vs 280pts of TB...well i wont continue, math it out, and TB will lose Wink

so now i cease my continuing of the argument. HAND - BooM!!!

name
mod
shot/
bs
s
ap

hit
wound
5up
4up
3up
avenger
9
3
4
4
5

18
12
12
6
4
exarch
1
5
5
4
5

4.167
2.78
2.78
1.38
0.925







hit
av10
5up ff
-HP/turn

scatter
1
4
3
6
6

3
2
1.33
-2.167

s.cannon
1
3
3
5
4

1.5
1.25
0.83



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Drager
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 16:46

What turn are DAs in range to fire (it isn't turn 1) thus slower. Movement distance is only one component of game speed.

Trueborn are a mix of 36" and 18" range guns if going all splinter. Poison is better than Str 4 for reliability. For the price of your DA squad I can have my Trueborn plus transport, including your transport I can add a second squad.

Point for point Trueborn outshoot DA across a game, even 5 Trueborn in a venom will often achieve more than 10 DA in a waveserpent and for a bit under 2/3 the cost.


That isn't even a particularly good Trueborn set up either.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 17:58

Ah, good ole theoryhammer, everybodies favourite ally.

If only it was as simple as tapping buttons on a calculator Wink
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 18:11

if only splinter weapons could harm vehicles

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 18:36

I'm not keen on the idea of allies to be honest, at a push I'd consider Night Lords or maybe Eldar, but it would be for fluff reasons only and not to gain competitive advantage.

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Drager
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 25 2012, 00:18

@Enfernux wrote:

Lets compare:
Dire avengers: bs-ws4, s-t3, w1, i5, a1, ld9, sv4up 12pts
dire catapults 18" s4 ap5 assault2
Exarch with bladestorm and dual catapults - Model included - 44pts

Trueborn bs-ws4, s-t3, w1, i5, a2, ld9, sv5up 12pts
splinter carabines 18" 4+ ap5 assault3
splinter cannon 36" 4+ ap5 heavy6 or assault4 - 10pts
Drachon with the same amount of points worth of upgrades - Model included - ghostplate, blastpistol 42 pts.

So Dire avenger build as standard vs crappy Trueborn build. Not a fair comparison. Trueborn don't take Drachon and crap upgrades.

5 Trueborn, 2 Cannon, 3 Carbine, Venom, 2 Cannon 160 pts

5 Dires, Exarch, Dual Cat, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent, Shuricannons 192 pts

@Enfernux wrote:
Comparison 5v5 Shooting 92pts vs 110pts
DA: 12 shots 18" bs4 s4 ap5 5.33 almost unsaved, ghotsplate can negate a few.
Exarch: 5 shots 18" bs5 s4 ap5 2.78 almost unsaved, ghstplate can negate a few. Lets say these went to the drachon - for easier comparison - 1.38 unsaved

Trueborn 14 shots 18" bs4 4+ ap5 2.33 unsaved
Dracon lets say he kept the carabine 3 shots bs 5 4+ ap5 - again vs the exarch - 0.41 unsaved.
Dracon vol2 blast pistol 1 shot bs5 s8 ap2 0.69 unsavable.
92 pts vs 110 pts 6.71 unsaved vs 3.02 unsaved.

Why are you having them shoot at each other? What's the point? That's a terrible way to compare their effectiveness in a list. Have them shoot at marines over a series of three turns (assuming Dires get out and bladestorm T2)

@Enfernux wrote:
and seeing that you continue to think you can harm my DA with splinterfire before i pop your vehicle...but vice versa i can very much hurt you, 257 pts of DA vs 280pts of TB...well i wont continue, math it out, and TB will lose Wink

so now i cease my continuing of the argument. HAND - BooM!!!

I really don't see what you mean I was comparing them as units fulfilling a role in my army, not in some weird isolated fight, where they are firing at vehicles for some reason...

Using the units I wrote out above, the comparison shooting at marines goes something like this

Turn 1
Dires + Serpent do zip, they have to move fast to get into range turn 2
Trueborn + Venom kill 2 2/9 Marines

Turn 2
Dires debus and Bladestorm, with Serpent they kill 2.65 Marines
Trueborn + Venom kill 2 2/9 Marines

Turn 3
Dires do zip as they Bladestormed last turn, Serpent kills 5/8 Marine
Trueborn + Venom kill 3 2/9 Marines

So over 3 turns
Dires + Transport kill 3.275 Marines
Trueborn kill 7 2/3 Marines

To fill the role of anti infantry then Trueborn> Dires and 30 points cheaper.

That's where I'm coming from. I do analysis of the units fucntion within an army, not of who would win on an empty field.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 20:53

I would also like to point out that Dire Avengers are troops and with Dark Eldar that's another scoring unit while Trueborn will never be scoring. In my opinion they both serve different roles Trueborn are a specialty unit ether killing tanks or troops while dire avengers are more anti infantry objective holding.

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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 28 2012, 22:24

I have only tried this once, but my friend lent me:

Eldrad
10 Dire Avengers
1 Wave Serpent

and from this I tried out the bladestorm + doom and guide from Eldrad... seemed pretty reasonable and they were all nicely shipped about in the Wave serpent. This was slightly more useful to me as the Wave serpent was cracking out some armour 12 to the field, but I wanted to see if anyone else thought this to be a useful tactic for allying...

HAK

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 00:01

@Drager wrote:

Turn 1
Dires + Serpent do zip, they have to move fast to get into range turn 2
Trueborn + Venom kill 2 2/9 Marines

Turn 2
Dires debus and Bladestorm, with Serpent they kill 2.65 Marines
Trueborn + Venom kill 2 2/9 Marines

Turn 3
Dires do zip as they Bladestormed last turn, Serpent kills 5/8 Marine
Trueborn + Venom kill 3 2/9 Marines

So over 3 turns
Dires + Transport kill 3.275 Marines
Trueborn kill 7 2/3 Marines

turn1 correct, turn 2, dires kill 3.069 with the serpent for 202 pts, trueborn kill 3.22 for 160! but the main comparison was the two unites, what kiles what better, and in a round of shooting, the DA perform better, are safer in an av12 not opentopped, forcefield protected tank, than the trueborn in the venom - that a devastator squad can blow up turn1 with only one round of shooting, thanks to hullpoints, being opentopped low AV.

If someone would put a splinter army in my way, i would have no problem guning them down with guardians and warwalkers - who are worse BS - and please take in to mind, that CWE are a very out of date codex, where DE get a darklance for 20, CWE get it for 40, so they are 1.5-2times more points for the same effect. Just for being fair, lets take a 0.5 off of the DA, resulting in 151-152 pts - being better protected and being able to kill as effectively, ill take, if they cant even shoot that much, and thats where the eldar trickery come in to play: knowing where to strike and when! Thats why dont like the "all shooty put em full of splinters" lists. They are fun, but an average list will make scrap out of our paper transport excuse for a ship vehicles.
A warwalker squadron, without guide - fancy that - strips 4 hullpoints off of av10 with 5up - invul or cover idk - , and having a DA close by makes short work of the targed.

Returning: i am comparing the two unites against each other, because one can deal with the other, but a negatory on the vice versa. Because DA can survive better in their vulcanized rubber suits than TB can in their latex jackets. And to show that a codex ment for a very-very old gametype can still take up the chalange, even if for a round with more advanced dexes, and to show: DA are troops, TB are elite, and a troop can do overally better than an elite just saddens me Wink

Edit: @Kraillach: you cant use psypowers out of vehicles that dont have firepoints, and serpents are hermetically sealed, except for witchfire abilities, what mostly the imperium can take - strange they can use witch while they consider every other race witches and heretics...ah well.. ^^

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High Archon Kraillach
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 01:47

I always looked to disembark the Dire Avengers into cover before offloading bladestorm then the next turn going to ground after blitzing the serpent away and making use of its weaponary seeing as the Dire Avengers can't do anything the turn they would be going to ground... Possible tactic?

But otherwise from your analysis I take it that Eldrad + Dire Avengers wouldnt be the greatest possible option for an Eldar Battle Brother's alliance...

HAK

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 07:25

Eldrad is a very powerful option, but he can only cast powers on himself, the squad inside the vehicle and the vehicle itsself. He has to disembark to cast cay doom, in order to do that, he has to disembark a turn sooner than he wants to use the power.

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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 17:39

I haven't used allies, but I think that using Chaos Marines would be nice. I think that the power armour would make a good buffer and that a Terminator Lord could be a nice Shock option, especially if deepstriked with Chosen or even normal Marines.

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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 17:55

I am planning on a simple eldar formation with a farseer with 2 powers plus runes, a small unit of rangers and then pehaps warp spiders or scatter walkers for some good mid strength firepower

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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 29 2012, 22:28

If I wanted to just have 2xrangers (pathfinders) units and 1 farseer + RoW + 1 Power, would it be ok just those? What could go around that? Counting that it'd be on a shootie list Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Allies, what are you using?   Allies, what are you using? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 01:45

So far, a foot seer with one power and ROW has been awesome. Have just used 3 jetbikes as the troop (cheapest ally combo possible and useful). I am tinkering with a biker seer and pathfinders, but at 1500pts every point must be used wisely.

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