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undeadfilth
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undeadfilth

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PostSubject: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 23:25

So, my girlfriend is currently frustrated to tears that her army performs nothing like it did in 5th. She went from being able to decimate my tyranids and necrons to getting completely skull effed by my necrons in our first 6th ed game. I felt ridiculously bad about it. My question, I guess, is what is currently the best way to run her army, I've taken a look at her codex and told her to go shooting. She has probably four or five thousand points worth of dark eldar, so most options we already have, it's just how to run them that we are having a hard time figuring out. Any recommendations on squads and loadouts that are working better would be great. She loved wytches and has a ton(she loves Lelith as well). Unfortunately I had to inform her that with the new overwatch rules and everything, wytches look like they've taken a huge shot to the groin. Please help me... I don't wanna make my GF cry anymore from my favorite game/hobby... BTW, I am a 6 year competitive player.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 02:47

i can only say, there are tons of threads here working on how to be competitive. This greatly depends on your gameplay to, for if you are shooty based, geting to know the assault based army isnt an easy way and vice versa. I still use assault army, my main hitter are incubi, tankhunters and secondary combatants are wyches, main heavy are flyers.
others use gunboats, there are the Buzzards, that is a reaver based list.

this greatly depends on what you/she wants/is willing to use.

2nd i would rather talk to her about this, for if i tell you what to tell her to be able to table you, you will make a counter for it Razz Smile

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 03:04

Admittedly the raider-rush (the assault kind, not the shooting kind) has taken a hit, however Wyches can be used still in the game. It is just that they have new priorities and needs a little revision on how they are being used in conjunction with a vehicle. In addition, the severity of the overwatch is based upon what the wyches are assaulting and the angle of the assault.

There are also the fact that overwatch can only be declared once by each unit, so if two units are charging into the same target, the target could only overwatch one target. To add to this, each charge is declared individually so in this manner you can forcibly trigger overwatches. Even if the assaulting squad do not reach the target, once the overwatch is triggered, it is triggered. That would leave the second squad being able to come in and charge without any worries of being overwatched. Also Overwatch could not be triggered in CC, so if one of the asssaulters get stuck in while the unit have not declared overwatch, it can never ever declare overwatch anymore as it is stuck in combat.

Personally, I always believe that the main strength of a Dark Eldar is not about the rushes and charging but it is about the repositioning and applying continuous overwhelming pressure on a small section of an entire opponent army and breaking it from there. If your girlfriend is just playing a simple charging tactic without any plan other than getting into CC, it would not help her in any way possible as that would make her very vulnerable to some moderately cunning players. We can always say what stuff would work, but in the end she will have to learn like the rest of us about adapting her army from 5th to 6th. It would provide a greater learning experience for her to adapt to the changing climate of things and also help her develop as a player.

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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 03:19

Hi undead.

If you are able to post a sample list of what your GF uses then we might be able to give some more detailed advice.

Not much has really been nerfed from our Codex with 6th its just some of our units will need slightly different tactics.

I wouldn't say charging from raiders is any worse than it was before. Yes we have lost on average a bit of range but we have also gained the ability to shoot before we charge which can be really nice for throwing a Grenade or even firing pistols before we go in.

Since you have said she loves Wyches I will say that they are still great and in someways got even better than before. Yes Overwatch will hurt but that can be countered by charging a small squad or a more durable squad in to soak Overwatch before your Wyches go in. Also giving a Hekatrix a Phantasm Grenade Launcher for stealth against Overwatch is great.
The Agoniser she probably ran with has taken a bit of a hit being AP3 now so a cheeper Power weapon or Venom Blade would be of better use.
Also Wyches are now amazing Anti-Tank. Hexatrix being able to throw a Haywire Grenade instead of shooting and then 5+ Wyches hitting with Haywire in CC you are very likely to glance any vehicle to death in a turn or 2. Just don't charge open topped transports as you will get Overwatched.
Also FNP for Wyches has arguably gotten better depending on what you face most often. It might be a 5+ now but it can save against Power Weapons which can be a great help.

As you can see its just a matter of tweaking playstyle. There are a lot of great threads tucked around here about how to use certain options now in 6th so maybe have her read through our Tatica section etc.

I am sure someone will give you a short general run down of more of the options but a sample list so we know what to focus on would be a great help.

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undeadfilth
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 03:33

Well, in terms of a list, i don't have one. Normally she'll run wytches in raiders and charge up to get into assaut, she loves scourges to death because of the gorgeous models, kabalites she tends to hold in the back/mid field with long range weapons on objectives/ in cover. Reavers are a big favorite of hers as well. To the individual that thought that i might use this information to tailor lists against her, i would never do that, as i have never done it in personal games where i'll know what i'm going up against. I treat every match as a tournament match, so i bring an all comers list to test my skills. Stupid tactic against orc swarms though... Anyways, hopefully that helps. Just wanting general pointers to help her with her game. She's not into chilling on forums like i am so i'm trying to do the best i can for her. I'm trying to teach her to be as good of a player as i am(2 time rogue trader 2nd place with tyranids than blood angels, and top 3 finisher in ard boyz prelims).

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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 04:46

That at least give us something to work off thanks.

I have explained Wyches so will do the others.

Scourges are still as good as ever, strong in CC with great ranged options they are also one of the few places to take Haywire Blasters so many people use them for behind the lines tank hunting that can AI in a pinch if needed.

Warriors are great and jumping into cover works well. Regardless of whether you are planning on sitting in cover with a Dark Lance or not taking them in a Raider is a great choice to give you more fire power and even is deployed in cover their Transport can give Wyches an escape option should they lose their own.
If you take them as a mobile weapons platform with Splinter Cannons in the Raider then Splinter Racks can be great boosting damage for times you need to move more than 6" in a turn.

Reavers have gotten better in 6th by far. With increase T always and their Jink+Skilled Rider saves they can be hard to take down. Bladevanes is also great for annoying the enemy and taking out a few at the same time. Expect them to drag fire away from some of your other models.

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 11:41

I'd say for DE the same kind of lists that worked well in 5th shuld still work quite well. The main difference is that big Wytch units are pretty bad now (cc in general got nerfed. Small Wytch units make exellent tank hunter with haywire nades, tho). Venoms and Ravagers are still great. Also, Baron with Hellions got a boost in utility since having a large mobile troop choise that doesn't need a transport is more useful now, and Scourges, Reavers and Beastmasters suddenly become very useful (Haywires got a boost, Reavers are a lot more durable, and Beastmasters, especially with the Baron benefit from the new rules for beasts and close combat).

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 13:39

@Crisis_Vyper wrote:

Personally, I always believe that the main strength of a Dark Eldar is not about the rushes and charging

wut? But thats what i do and i win. Ok, i am an in your face kind of playah^^

Anyways, on topic:
Wyches are still good, just not solely alone. They need other stuff. I use my wyches as tankhunters AND as tarpit unites! I position my sqads to give cover to the precharging one, that is the incubi with an archon, pgl, so i have a 3up cover and a 2up invul, so if im shot with hotshot las weapons - ap3 - i stil have cover, and if im shot with flamers - max ap4 - then i still have armor.
Charge the incu in, multi assault preferably, then assault the other unite ive multiassaulted with wyches, so overwatch is negated, assault rolls in order: archon, wyches, incu, enemy - if they survive.

A pure wych list can also do this, but they are more voulnerable to flamers - what the opponent cant mostly take for the whole squad.

All in all, wych priorities for me: tarpit, tankhunter, weaken others for the incu to decimate.
Also i use disintegrators, missiles and haems to soften up a unite for me to cleave them to bitz! Like so: i want to charge a unite of 10 marines - not split in to two.
First i use 2 disintegrators from a razorwing, 2-3 dead marines, use the liquifire, lets say i rolled a 4 for AP, so they have saves, but i get 5 of them, we already have 3-5 dead marines, wyches shooting and grenades: a minimum of 5 dead marines. So they have 5 down, lets say the flamer survived, and you charge.
Sgrt with plasma pistol, one flamer, the other 3 are bolter guys. 2.13 dead wyches out of 9. because of the numbers, we'll asume its only 2.
Heka with VB hits first, 3ups to hit, 2s to wound, AS allowed, 4 attacks, the other 6 gals hit normal, chalange issued by sgrt, heka takes it.
Heka 0.74 usnaved, rounding mathematically thats 1, so the sgrt is dead. No fear from the PF anymore.
the rest of the wyches do 3 attacks, thats 18 attacks, 3 of them are with razorflail, so:
1.44, rounding thats 1. 3 marines left, each attacks once. 0.5 dead wyches, so rounding thats 1.

Killed a sgrt, killed one guy, thats 2, you lost 1, marines lose, 3 marines left. Btch please. Marines roll 2d6 on ld 6, because they lost combat, thats mostly a run.


And i also didnt use the haemraiders dissies on the sqad, maybe i used it to soften up a nother sqad for my incu to cover-charge, multi assault and my other wyches to tie the multied sqad in cc.

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undeadfilth
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 22:46

This should help quite a lot. I'll pass it on to her and see if she has any questions. Thanks!

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Dodo_Night
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 01:11

I recommend reading Mushkilla's "The Black Buzzards Vs" in Realspace raids. He runs a wych/reaver bike list that works amazingly well. Like how he uses disintegrators on a raider to weaken a squad for the charging wyches and having a Succubus in the wych squad. Here's the link to his most recent one. https://www.thedarkcity.net/t3900-the-black-buzzards-vs-sw-mechanized-1000pts

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 13:23

Ok, took me a while to figure out how to beat up my mates nids in this edition, he was running flying hive tyrants, mawloc, multiple tervigon breeders, 3 x 2 hive guard.

In the end up nids fall as always to multiple and sustained poison shots, always have and always will, even with catalyst or whatever it is that gives them FnP. That means multiple venoms, I run 3 with 5 Haywire toting wyches, not much use against nids, but mine is an all-comers list.

I tried reavers to bring down the flying MC's, didn't work for me. What did was an aegis line with quad gun armed by warriors with a Heami beside them. Easily hits the beasts taking wounds and perhaps a grounding test as well.

Venoms are also good for getting the hit on them to try and gain the grounding test. Once the beasts are down then, I run a 3 dissie ravager, number of shots, with armour ignoring AP usually finishes them off.

In general I target Flying MC's, then Hive guard. Once these are gone DE have the run of the table and with poison will just mow down gants, guants etc. Raiders with splinter racks help here as well. A razorwing with even standard missiles will also deal nicely with little bugs.
The quad gun also comes in useful for stripping wounds from the tervigons,later on.

I also run deamon allies in the list: Herald of Tzeentch, horrors and a soul grinder, templates, firepower and durabilty help here, but that's just a little extra bonus Wink
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 13:34

@kenny: and how is this helping undeads GF beat him? Smile

like: Nids: shoot'em with missiles, burn them to ashes with liquifires
and then decimate them with incubi. Does this help? I dont think so, for
this is just an overview of what are explained in tactics, like i did,
to use this, than this, than this, and you could also use this, but you
can do something different with it.

Yeah, you run wyches with a cliche msu build, and? What you do with
them, how do you utilize their advantages, do you simultaneously charge
if the opponent doesnt have vehicles at all/near or do you soalk up
overwatch from other unites?

Did undead mention what type of list he has? Maybe he has a horde list, so talking about flying MCs is irrelevant. Who knows, maybe its good? We only know that he needs advice to tell his GF, so she can table him.

@undead: btw, would you mind pointing her in the direction of this forum? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 17:01

@ Enfernux: This is helping his GF because it works from personal experience. And 3 units of 5 wyches does not make a cliche MSU list.

The list I play against covers all bases, hordes, MC's and shooty nids. Flying 'rants come with twin linked devourers, tervigons breed bugs to build a sizable horde, usually about 60 or so, and the hive guard add more firepower.
As you say we don't know what list Undead uses, so we are all farting against thunder, until we know.

Heres how I play Nids at present, I don't see the need to explain what each unit does, principles do fine.

If it is a breeder horde list, kill the breeders, lances, quad gun, dissies, poison, then the horde. Templates and poison from range work fine here. You do not want to get into HtH with a properly played horde, re-rollable, S4 poison attacks, we are dead, even incubi and wyches.

If it's a shooter list, kill the mobile gun platforms, ie Flying rants, then the static, ie hive guard. Take away the ranged shooting that restricts your movement then gun down the rest with poison and templates. Bit simplistic but then again thats me.

Wyches: Against Nids, I use their venoms to gun down gaunts/gants or clip wound off of MC's. The wyches will only get out the venom to claim objectives or finish off a depleted gaunt/gant unit.


Last edited by kenny3760 on Thu Aug 23 2012, 23:08; edited 1 time in total
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Detharmonic
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 18:19

A lot of what has been said is fairly accurate and I agree when people say she just needs to find her comfort zone in this new edition. Since its a new edition, she’ll need new tactics. Using the same tactics she used in 5th will only get her so far and judging by what you’ve said – isn’t very far at all.

She likes wyches and reavers – good. Both are very strong units. Wyches need a little more finesse and planning to get the most out of them in 6th, so her “dive head first into enemy lines” strat, won’t be so effective anymore. From my experience, softening up units early-mid game makes for very successful combats late game. Good thing Reavers are amazing at softening up targets with bladevanes. For the wyches, a Phantasm Grenade Launcher will go a long way (it gives her an equal chance to save her wyches as the enemy has to hit them with overwatch). I usually take the Reavers as an “all comers” unit. Some people will argue this is a waste of points, as it gets quite pricey. But a unit of 9 Reavers strong, with 3 caltrops and 3 heatlances will never let her down (it has yet to disappoint me).

She also likes Lelith, possibly the best HQ choice we have now. She is awesome. However, your GF might get more out of her wych and reaver units if she takes the duke. Rolling two times on the combat drug table is nothing to scoff at. You get to choose which result you take before deployment and after you know who your opponent is (duh). This allows you to choose the best possible option for your units. Usually starting with a pain token is the best bet. But the +1S and +1A options are viable as well!

The best advice i can give is to change up her tactics. As mentioned before, that first and second turn assault will ensure her demise. DE are mobile and cunning and love an unfair fight (in their favour, of course). Her goal should be to soften up enemy units turns 1-3, then go for the throat with her entire army on turns 4+. The endgame will go by quickly as both turns will just be resolving combats. A big tip for when she plays your necrons would be to pick a unit and throw everything she has at it until it can’t get back up. Focus fire is super effective! She might even find it useful as a general tactic against other armies too. Oh, and read the 6th ed. BRB 100 more times. One can never read that thing enough.


EDIT: She may also want to give Hellions a go. They are awesome now. They are incredibly mobile, good AI, and even decent in combat. With the Baron leading them they aren’t so squishy either. Also, the stunclaw is amazing for singling out that important enemy Warlord. Once you pull the warlord out of its squad, challenge with the baron. He’s not a monster in CC, but with a squad of 15-20 hellions cheering him on, re-rolling that 2++ save 2-3 times per phase, he’s sure to win that war of attrition, netting you that 1VP. (also, hellions fit in with the theme of a wyches and reavers list quite well!)
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 23 2012, 21:22

Like Detharmonic said wyches have changed and can't be used as head on as they used to. However they are still a fantastic unit and with a haywire they are very versatile. The Phantasm Grenade Launcher is definitely a must on them this edition as with cover it means you can get a 4+ cover save against overwatch and other shooting and cover isn't really a problem with fleet in this edition.

I run a reaver/wyches heavy list so If she needs ideas on how to use them in this edition it might be worth checking out the battle report against necrons in my signature (it's got nice pictures!).

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 24 2012, 12:30

@Mushkilla wrote:
(it's got nice pictures!).

usually its the pictures that tell me what happened, not the writing ^^ picsurz, me luvz picsurz What a Face

anyways: @Kenny: now that is more like a helper, than i use this and bleh. Telling others what you use doesnt tell them how to use it.

@Enfernux wrote:

@undead: btw, would you mind pointing her in the direction of this forum? Smile
- this still stands

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undeadfilth
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 25 2012, 01:16

I've told her to hop on, but because she's still new to 40k I think she trusts me to coach her rather than her try and read all of these tactics. You guys are amazing. After all the advice and information I'm getting from her I feel like I'm ready to hop into a tournament with her army now lol:P But yes, I told her she should take a look and I am unsure if she did or not. And as far as my nids go, I run a flying circus. Winged bugs everywhere with yealers and drop pod gants and gaunts. It's not as mean as it was in 5th but still packs quite a punch. My necrons are the stupid force right now and I don't even know what to do with my 13k of Blood Angels...

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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 25 2012, 09:11

Flyer nids: Black Buzzards
Necrons: An incubi based army - my composition, 7inc+klaivex only kills 9.22 crons, with no AS allowed Wink
B.Angels...well...i'd say, giv'em to a vampire. They are angels of BLOOD after all Razz

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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 08:05

Flying Circus: I heartily recommend a quad gun, flyers and MSU to beat this. Get the flyers down with splinter fire then finish them off with lance shots. Getting them grounded and having enough shots left to finish them off is critical.
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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 10:55

I have found a Quad-gun or two to be near indespencible against a Necron Flyer army.

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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 11:27

@Orthien wrote:
I have found a Quad-gun or two to be near indespencible against a Necron Flyer army.

im just so glad no one in this town plays crons Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 11:45

@Enfernux wrote:
@Orthien wrote:
I have found a Quad-gun or two to be near indespencible against a Necron Flyer army.

im just so glad no one in this town plays crons Very Happy

You Sir are a lucky man!

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PostSubject: Re: GF needs help...   GF needs help... I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 15:09

first of all, you have an awesome gf undead....

and as for advice, i say that ya tell her wyches have a more av role in battle than ai. due to my bad rolls, my wyches cant tarpit anything for crap.... change to k warriors i guess

psst you can always go easy on her

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