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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 08:15

You have a very convincing argument, maybe you will have better luck then I did asking the same question on warseer (seeing as you seem to be a respected member). Smile

You have a good argument I'm curious what people think.

Here is the link to my thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?345358-Squad-Leaders-special-heavy-weapons-and-precision-shot

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Krovin-Rezh
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 08:37

Well, "respected" may be stretching it, but I've put a feeler out. Wink

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 08:50

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Well, "respected" may be stretching it, but I've put a feeler out. Wink

Best of luck. I'll try and support you. Smile

EDIT: If they close it for threadomancy (funny how a month is threadomancy on warseer) then we will just start a new one.

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 10:11

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:

the mechanics of 6th mean that you could gain benefit from it, in that your flamer could then be protected by LoS rolls you may not otherwise have had, which could really impact on the game. (flaming a squad of warriors off an objective on last turn for example.)
It does not affect this case. Wounds are allocated to the nearest remaining model until they are gone. LO,S just allows another model to bite it instead of the Sybarite, but if there are equal or greater wounds than targeted models, there will be no one left to defer the wound onto, and the Sybarite will still die. If the flamer unit didn't do enough wounds to begin with, they would have failed in clearing the objective (unless morale is failed) regardless of the Sybarite.
My comments in blue.[/quote]

hang on, it def affects that case. if a sarge equivalent is toting a flamer or other special weapon, he is entitled to a look out sir, a normal trooper isnt. that makes the flamer guy a lot more survivable than a regular trooper who would just be removed as closest model.
if you only put say four or five wounds into a large squad with the sarge equiv being maybe two or three back from the closest (quite conceivable with cover, armour, misses and failed wounds), then special weapons on sarge equivalents (that are questionable, hence the debate) could def be seen as an exploit, due to the increase in survivability of being able to palm wounds off onto a regular guy.
the sarge survives with flamer intact and then cooks your squad of warriors sat on the objective.
i wouldnt be happy tbh
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 10:16

As Count Adhemar and Krovin-Rezh bravely did battle against the mindless Warseer hordes. Mushkilla watched in bemusement form his Raider high above the chaos. Soon they would be overrun. This had all been too easy, they had walked straight into his trap. Having inflated their egos with a few sly words, they had readily jumped at the opportunity to prove themselves. The Fools! He thought to himself. I don't even use Kabalite Warriors! Twisted Evil

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 10:42

@Mushkilla wrote:
As Count Adhemar and Krovin-Rezh bravely did battle against the mindless Warseer hordes. Mushkilla watched in bemusement form his Raider high above the chaos. Soon they would be overrun. This had all been too easy, they had walked straight into his trap. Having inflated their egos with a few sly words, they had readily jumped at the opportunity to prove themselves. The Fools! He thought to himself. I don't even use Kabalite Warriors! Twisted Evil

LOL

To be perfectly honest, I've never been impressed by the Warseer crowd and, so far, they're living up to my expectations on that thread.

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Krovin-Rezh
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 10:44

Silly Mush, but I do enjoy getting to the bottom of these things...

csjarrat, we were talking about two different things. But you are right about what could happen. You may not be happy about that, but it's still a much better chance than you had in 5th, where the regular Marine with the flamer could always be the last standing. You now have a 50% chance of killing him with every unsaved wound where he's the closest model. That's still a pretty darn good improvement.

Also, why are you putting KWs within flamer range without support?

@Count Adhemar wrote:

LOL

To be perfectly honest, I've never been impressed by the Warseer crowd and, so far, they're living up to my expectations on that thread.
Yeah, me neither. It's why I go here as well. There are few bright souls (mmm delicious) over there, but mostly it's a rabble of angry whiners and trolls.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 10:57

Joking aside, it is an interesting topic.

Honestly, the first time I read it, I thought it made sense that you could give a splinter cannon to a sybarite (not that you would ever want to in 5th). I would say RAI it was not intended (going on the other codexes, fluff and general back ground). As for RAW it's complicated and I think the "yes you can" side has a better argument.

I would be impressed if you guys managed to convince warseer otherwise, that would be no easy feat.

Let the warseer raid begin (blows bugle)!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 10:59

So far, the argument against it seems to be "Because you can't!" which hasn't really worked on me since I was about 6 years old. Very Happy

I'm not really expecting to sway the good folks at Warseer but if I come away from the thread without a clear and consice statement of exactly why this option is impossible then I'm a happy camper.

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 21 2012, 11:03

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
Silly Mush, but I do enjoy getting to the bottom of these things...

csjarrat, we were talking about two different things. But you are right about what could happen. You may not be happy about that, but it's still a much better chance than you had in 5th, where the regular Marine with the flamer could always be the last standing. You now have a 50% chance of killing him with every unsaved wound where he's the closest model. That's still a pretty darn good improvement.

Also, why are you putting KWs within flamer range without support?

@Count Adhemar wrote:

LOL

To be perfectly honest, I've never been impressed by the Warseer crowd and, so far, they're living up to my expectations on that thread.
Yeah, me neither. It's why I go here as well. There are few bright souls (mmm delicious) over there, but mostly it's a rabble of angry whiners and trolls.

i wouldnt normally do it, but was rather giving a random example of what could happen late game when things might not have gone to plan. i know its still better odds than last edition, all i was highlighting is that it feels like an exploit, using things that arent clearly defined to gain an advantage seems a bit "off". maybe its just me, but i'm not keen on the idea and would like it FAQ'd.

edit:
space marines cant actually take advantage of this method as the sarge is included in the unit cost and is not an upgrade, therefore fallls out of the remit of this.
my objection still stands because i know my opponents would be miffed if a blaster-weilding sybarite oneshotted a tank after dodging bullets through LoS.
i cant see anything saying you specifically cant do it, but it just seems weird to me

edit:
lol, i can just imagine the firestorm you created over on warseer :-) has the nerd rage erupted spectacularly? :-D
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 08:07

How goes the pillaging of warseer?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 08:58

Not looked yet. Was at the footy last night so didn't bother checking forums at home. Yesterday we'd reached the "Well you might be right but I wouldn't want to play you" stage. Will see what's happened now...

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 09:02

It spilled over into the DE tactics thread for a while.

Quote :
Cheating isn't a tactic... or at least not a valid one. Sybarites =/= KW.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 09:14

Well, I see there are a lot of people who think it's wrong but very few who are able to present any sort of argument as to why. I'll work up a reply on Warseer but it might take a while...

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 09:21

That is my point, I don't think it's right, but I agree that your argument is a lot better then mine, like I said the arguments against doing it just don't hold water. Smile

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 10:29

I have just read the warseer thread, you gays have unleshed a dinusar on that place, well done!
The funny thing is, at first I was in the camp of “ofcurse Sybarites can´t have the splintercannon” but after the warseer experience I have changed my mind. The arguments against is rather week, and the arguments for is stronger.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 10:39

I'm having a whale of a time over there. Helps pass the time of day...

The silly thing is, I'm honestly not that bothered by the whole issue. I just cannot stand people who claim to be right but can't actually demonstrate why they feel that way. If someone actually comes up with a valid reason why it is illegal then I'll happily concede but at the moment it's just a stream of people saying "You can't do that because....erm...."

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 22 2012, 13:34

As with everyone, my initial reaction was "no, what? no...", but really seeing the lack of an argument against it has been very curious. Though honestly, I'm not sure I would really ever use it. +10 points for a 4+ LoS and precision shot? Meh.

However, after speaking with a friend of mine and scouring through a number of codices (though not GK and Sisters), we began to realize precisely how rare this situation is. In fact, even in the DE army, it really only applies to a handful of situations.

From what we could tell, DE and Orks.

SM, IG, CSM have leaders in-built in the points.
Necrons, Eldar, and others have 'add-on' leaders (not upgrades)
Tau and their ilk don't have individual weapons upgrades.

In fact, we found it very rare for a unit to have individual special weapons upgrades AND a squad leader upgrade. Look at the wording in harlequins (any model may have a harlie's kiss) or wyches or the other units in the DE army. The fact of the matter is that such wording as is used in the DE warrior entry is very atypical. We found that interesting.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 09:54

Krovin-Rezh, your argument tactics are not quite up to scratch you keep alienating people who are on your side or at least neutral. Nostro & Atherzon being two examples, don't attack people who are on the fence, it will just push them off to the other side. Nostro gave you a very strong supporting argument concerning the librarian upgrade / epistolary, you should have focused on that rather then attacking his other comments.

Still I respect/impressed by your endurance/determination in that topic ("It's the eye of the tiger, it's the cream of the fight. Risin' up to the ..."). Keep it up! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 26 2012, 15:20

hey everyone,

saw this while i was doin my forum haunting and i would like to present my argument to all.

i do agree that u may have a sybarite or other sarges like aspiring champs with heavy weapons BUT

as someone said earlier, nobody uses the sarge to carry a heavy, simply because its not his/her job. her job is to lead the warriors into the fray, and her warriors try to protect her because she has authority, not because she's carrying a heavy

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 12:02

Count Adhemar have you seen the progression on the Warseer thread? They seem to have found something in the Dark Angels FAQ (ironically it might not be around much longer).

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 12:07

I did read through a few pages yesterday but there were something like 7 new pages so didn't get a chance to read all the posts. I'll take a look.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 12:09

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I did read through a few pages yesterday but there were something like 7 new pages so didn't get a chance to read all the posts. I'll take a look.

Yeah there is a lot of stuff, so far I have just been skim reading and trying to stop people being mean to each other, but they are on to something with the DA FAQ, how conclusive it is I don't know (I doubt the debate will stop). Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 12:28

Still wading through all this Harlequin nonsense. I'm sure I'll get to something i) accurate and ii) relevant sometime soon...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 30 2012, 12:46

The DA FAQ issue is a good point and I'm actually persuaded.

Still, I couldn't just let them stop arguing so I'm now onto Ork Nobz with Big Shootas and Power Klaws Very Happy

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