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Ebonhart
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 09:56

so with 6th, and the challenge rules how necessary is it to include a unit captain?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 10:06

I assume you mean a squad leader (Hekatrix, Sybarite etc) and I would say that it is essential if you also have an IC in the unit as you want to be able to dodge challenges from enemy IC's and/or issue challenges to the enemy to stop them butchering your unit. For other units though I would say it's less critical. You might still want to be able to challenge a nasty IC to preserve your own unit though so it is possibly useful to take a cheap leader with no upgrades.

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Mushkilla
Arena Champion
Mushkilla

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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 10:11

So far in my experience of 6th:

-Hekatrix is great for extra leadership, and a venom blade to give some punch to the unit, can also provide a PGL which can really benefit larger squads.
-Arena champions (same as Hekatrix without the PGL)
-Siren (same as Hekatrix)
-Aberration are great to protect the haemonculus who runs with the unit from challenges, and adds solid punch (venom blade or flesh gauntlet).




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Last edited by Mushkilla on Mon Aug 13 2012, 12:13; edited 1 time in total
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 11:47

Short answer. Worth the pts more indeed in 6th (LoS!) versus the 5th (where only upgrades mattered).

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 17:59

But it must be said that it doesnt worth it on non assault units. So Dracon and Sybarite are still fluffy guys or Sliscus drop guys. Especially if you run small squads in venoms.
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Krovin-Rezh
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 15 2012, 06:32

Sybarites still have a trick up their collective sleeve. You can put the SC/DL/blaster on them so that you gain a 4+ save to put an allocated wound on someone else in the unit. And of course, there's still the leadership bump, which is more important than most people think. After playing the relic mission against a CWE ranger army, I'm taking characters and grisly trophies for sure.

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Shadows Revenge
Hierarch of Tactica
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 16 2012, 14:08

a squad leader is only good in assault troops, that way you get precsion shots and attacks. Also the ability to challenge and take out say... a power fist, before it hits is a powerful ability.

other than that they are useless, unless your squad has multi-wound models, which its good to be able to do max wound allocation then, but then again an IC would be better as its a 2+ instead of a 4+

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Krovin-Rezh
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 00:18

^Dude, you can't say they are useless when I just explained how they can be useful for cheap Ld and keeping special guns alive longer.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 06:49

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
^Dude, you can't say they are useless when I just explained how they can be useful for cheap Ld and keeping special guns alive longer.

As far as my understanding of the codex goes you can't give a Sybarites special weapons, they are not warriors and only warriors can be given Blaster/SC. This is the same for all the entries in the codex.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 10:28

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Krovin-Rezh wrote:
^Dude, you can't say they are useless when I just explained how they can be useful for cheap Ld and keeping special guns alive longer.

As far as my understanding of the codex goes you can't give a Sybarites special weapons, they are not warriors and only warriors can be given Blaster/SC. This is the same for all the entries in the codex.

This has been argued before but the Ork FAQ gives a precedent to being able to choose one upgrade before another and have both work.

Codex Orks FAQ wrote:
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot happier that way!

In this case you upgrade a warrior to carry a blaster and then upgrade him further to a Sybarite.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 10:38

Being an Ork player, I don't agree with that. The FAQ was for a different situation, a different edition, for an entry that is worded differently to the DE codex. More importantly it is concerning upgrading an Boy to a Nob before giving them weapons, in this case you would want to upgrade him after giving him a special weapon. You still can't give a Ork Nob a big shoota and in my experience that has been the general consensus of the Ork community.

Either way the DE codex unit entry is not worded the same way as the Ork codex, so the precedence is irrelevant.

As much as I would love to run my arena champions with heat lances, this is not the case. Hell, a syberite with a splinter cannon would on average be able to snipe a model a turn.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 11:03

The FAQ is still applicable to 6th edition but in any event, it's not the specifics of the Ork Codex entry but the general principle that upgrades can be chosen in specific orders.

In fact, looking at the Ork Boyz entry I'd also argue that a Nob absolutely can take a big shoota. The upgrade option there is "one Ork may..".

So, in fact, you can do the following:

Purchase a Boyz mob with Sluggas and Choppas.
One Ork (not Boy, Ork) may exchange his slugga for a big shoota
One Boy may be upgraded to a Nob (so we upgrade the Boy with the Big Shoota)
He may replace his choppa (which he still has) for a big choppa or a power klaw
The entire mob replaces their sluggas and choppas (neither of which the Nob now has) for shootas

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 11:20

Why doesn't it just say "one model" then instead of "one kabalite warrior", like in the harlequin entry, or the wych weapon entry?

I'm all for it but I would have a hard time convincing any of my opponents.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 12:01

@Mushkilla wrote:
Why doesn't it just say "one model" then instead of "one kabalite warrior", like in the harlequin entry, or the wych weapon entry?

GW has never really been known for the tightness of their wordings in rules or codexes.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 14:42

Btw, speaking of challenges, I may have a hint you may not have noticed ( long discussion was needed for that ! ) :
No challenge is possible during the first turn of CC, because :
- You can't challenge/be challenged if the model is not engaged
- A model gets engaged during his initiative step
- challenges are made at the beginning of the second phase of assault = combat => before the initiative steps.

=> Challenge are ( atm ) almost useless.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 14:57

Yeah, I read something about that on YTTH. Probably about the only thing that I've ever actually read on that site that was in any way useful or accurate.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 15:35

to me this sounds bogus. First off you are counted as "engaged" when in base to base or within 2" of a model that is in base to base. Secondly the only thing that happens at the Int step is step up. True, you can keep your sargie from getting challenged by staying in the back, and waiting to step up later (as if your sargie is out of that 2", then he cant be challenged) That being said I will check it out when I get home.

My other problem with this is its from the guy who tried to ally Eldar and DE w/ Crons... tried to have allies for Nids... and still claimed to have the book for over a year and a half... Yah... about that...

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 15:57

Quote :
First off you are counted as "engaged" when in base to base or within 2" of a model that is in base to base.
actually not.
you get engaged with a model when it comes to it's initiative step. ( I got an english version of the rulebook this time, this is not a translation mistake :p )
And you can't really keep it in the back, you have to engage it if you can, otherwise just move it, which means that in a big unit, you could protect your IC one more turn by having it at the very back of your unit.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 17:06

if that is true, then you cant even do wounds to a unit, as you put wounds against "engaged" models first...

but I digress, I will look it up when I get home.

Also, you can hide ICs from challenges, its really simple

Take for example this ork mob charging a tactical squad. Sargie has a power weapon, Nob has a power fist

x- Orks
o- tactical squad
N- Nob
S- Sergeant

x x x x x N x x x x

o o o S o o o

If you line them up like that (or something like that) and they both get into base to base (or 2" from combat) you can then challenge, as the model is considered "engaged"

but say you dont want that Nob to die before he gets his attacks, and would rather see him hit some space marines, this is what you do
N
x
x
x
x x x x x x x x

o o o S o o o

When you charge, make sure the Nob is atleast 2" away from a base to base model. Being at I1, his step up isnt until last. So the Sargie tries to challenge, your Nob isnt an "Engaged" model since he isnt in the required distance (base to base or 2" from a model that is base to base) Therefore he has to attack the squad. On Nob I (I1) he then moves up 3", closing that gap to become an "engaged"model, and he is now able to make his attacks.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 17:27

I may be wrong, but I think you guys need to reread challenges. P64, BRB, "challenges are issued at the start of the fight subphase". Nowhere does it say initiative step. Plus, only the challenger has to be in base/locked in combat; the accepter does not. In your second example SR if the Sargie ( lol, Im an ultrasmurf Sargie and I likes ponies and the emeperor and shiny armour) challenged the nob, the nob would be placed within reach, the rules only state that it must be in coherency even giving a proviso that if the cant reach they be placed as close as possible and count as in base.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 17:36

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think you guys need to reread challenges. P64, BRB, "challenges are issued at the start of the fight subphase". Nowhere does it say initiative step. Plus, only the challenger has to be in base/locked in combat; the accepter does not. In your second example SR if the Sargie ( lol, Im an ultrasmurf Sargie and I likes ponies and the emeperor and shiny armour) challenged the nob, the nob would be placed within reach, the rules only state that it must be in coherency even giving a proviso that if the cant reach they be placed as close as possible and count as in base.

The final sentence under both Issuing a Challenge and Accepting a Challenge state that models must be engaged.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 17:58

Thanks CA, I see that, sure makes challenges useless then and TBH is not how we've been playing it here. Do you think they meant to say including models that ARE engaged with an enemy model? Would make the rest of it make sense.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 18:03

Quote :
Also, you can hide ICs from challenges, its really simple
Yes you can, but the uni moves and the turn after you get into challenge.
Although I did not considered the fact that you could still hit during the same turn, it can make it usefull for 5 man squads actually.

Imo they made a mistake there, even though it kinda make sence, it makes challenge not really intersting unless between big squads fights maybe.
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Krovin-Rezh
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 20:24

Back to the Sybarite discussion, it's not hard at all to provide an explanation for how this is done. I just assumed it was well known in these parts, but here you go:

Upgrade a Kabalite Warrior with a special gun for X pts.

Then you can upgrade that Kabalite Warrior to a Sybarite for X pts. This doesn't replace any weapons, but note that he can no longer trade in his splinter rifle because he no longer has it. Can still take Ghostplate or PGL though.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Aye aye, Captain!   Aye aye, Captain! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 21:04

Concerning the sybarite thing. In my experience tournaments haven't allowed it, nor does my gaming group.

Also the guys at 3++ is the new black say you can't do it, so I'm guessing there must be some reasoning for it. I wonder what tournaments like NOVA say on the subject? Also why isn't everyone running around with Splinter Cannnon Sniper Sybarites then?




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