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 Non-WWP Beastmasters?

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teh603
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PostSubject: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 05:09

Anyone tried beastmasters outside of a WWP list since 6th dropped?

The reason I'm asking is because Beasts (the iconic one in the rulebook is a Khymera, coincidence?) now move 12" and completely ignore difficult terrain. That means they can keep up with splinter rack warriors, slow-moving Wyches, and Skyboards. They also ignore difficult terrain in the movement phase. All in all, it looks like they're our most improved unit in 6th, going from a WWP only one-hit wonder to a potentially game-changing fast mover.
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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 09:07

Absolutely! I've been using them quite a bit lately with the Baron. The boost to movement is great, I run 3 beastmasters with 4 razorwing flocks and 5 khymera. A cheap unit (about 156pts I do believe) that is one of our more survivable units and they pack a nice punch when they hit. The Baron makes them fantastic as he can soak up wounds, take challenges to keep powerfists from killing your birds, gives them grenades, and hit and run comes in handy quite a bit. Great unit and works fine without the WWP.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 14:42

I still think the Reaver Jetbikes are the most improved unit but the beasts did get a good buff. They still need grenades (as do the bikes) or they will strike last but I think they will have a better time allocating wounds than any other unit - I think that is where the real bonus of 6th edition lies with them.

As for the WWP, it isn't as beneficial for them to use the portal in this edition now that you can not assault out of the portal. Either way, the opponent will have one turn to shoot at them and another opportunity to Overwatch them before the hit (unlike the bikes which can bladevane straight out of the portal).

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 15:34

Quote :
Jetbikes can always move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving Jetbike begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. - BRB page 45

As they move over the terrain and not through it they don't have to strike at I1. (arguable)

Honestly I think bikes and beasts will get FAQed to not strike at I1 as it says they are not slowed by difficult terrain. Bad wording on GW part but I think the intention is clear that they wanted beasts and bikes to strike at regular Initiative. The 5th ed wording said something along the lines of anything slowed by difficult terrain during assault strikes at I1, this wording changed in 6th and I think GW didn't realise how changing the wording would affect some of the other rules (left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing). At least that's what I think.

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 16:12

This was also a issue in 5th ed with Eldar Harlequins. Flip-belts said "ignore difficult terrain" and left it at that. This clearly meant that they ignored any kind of difficult terrain test required for movement and assault but what about the initiative penalty for moving through terrain? If it did mean they could assault with no initiative penalty, then what was the point of the Shadowseer granting them all plasma grenades? It was also difficult to compare wording between the Codex and the BRB because they were from different editions. This kind of thing often happens when a Codex is an edition (or more) behind the main rulebook and lacking a good FAQ.

Anyway, I don't have many comments to post myself about Beastmasters in a non-WWP list but I'm interested in this thread as I have been toying with the idea myself for a Dark Olympiad theme - using the Apocalypse formation as a basis for a standard 40k army.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 16:37

I don't see any reason why we can't use Beasts without a WWP. As long as they can benefit from a cover save they're actually one of our more survivable units, especially when joined by Baron.

My thinking is that the Beastmasters lead the way and take the heat from incoming fire but use Look Out Sir! (on a 4+) to redirect anything nasty onto a Khymerae (4++ save) and weaker fire onto the Razorwings (due to large number of wounds). If you lose a Beastmaster due to a failed LOS roll and crap save it's no big deal but with a cover save and Stealth from Baron you will hopefully arrive in combat reasonably intact.

Alternatively, you can do the same thing but with Baron out in front with his Shadowfield and a 2+ LOS to redirect. Only problem with that is you do run the risk if him being torrented down with small arms fire but you should be redirecting that to razorwings anyway and it's only 1/36 of failing both LOS and Shadowfield save.

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 16:54

Yeah, that's a nice idea. As long as at least 1 Beastmaster or the Baron gets there alive for the Ld boosts, there's nothing wrong with killing off a couple to save some Beasts. We can always regrow them later, right? Wink

I wanted to stay away from the Baron in my lists as he doesn't fit the fluff of my army but it does sound like he adds a great deal of potency to the unit. I guess I could always say he's just the Wych Cult's best Beastmaster and the leader of the raid has seen fit to grant him a few new toys. Razz
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teh603
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 18:29

@Count Adhemar wrote:
My thinking is that the Beastmasters lead the way and take the heat from incoming fire but use Look Out Sir! (on a 4+) to redirect anything nasty onto a Khymerae (4++ save) and weaker fire onto the Razorwings (due to large number of wounds). If you lose a Beastmaster due to a failed LOS roll and crap save it's no big deal but with a cover save and Stealth from Baron you will hopefully arrive in combat reasonably intact.
Y'know, I was thinking that beastmasters aren't characters, but I checked the rulebook and they are. Go figure.

What about the occasional power lance on the beastmaster instead of the usual agonizer?
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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 13 2012, 21:51

@teh603 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
My thinking is that the Beastmasters lead the way and take the heat from incoming fire but use Look Out Sir! (on a 4+) to redirect anything nasty onto a Khymerae (4++ save) and weaker fire onto the Razorwings (due to large number of wounds). If you lose a Beastmaster due to a failed LOS roll and crap save it's no big deal but with a cover save and Stealth from Baron you will hopefully arrive in combat reasonably intact.
Y'know, I was thinking that beastmasters aren't characters, but I checked the rulebook and they are. Go figure.

What about the occasional power lance on the beastmaster instead of the usual agonizer?

interesting, I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for catching that!

As for the Baron being fluffy in an army, I think that since he is a pretty well connected dude, he has lots of friends that he would work with or use. flower
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 14 2012, 10:58

True, but I can't really see Vect or Lelith willing to put up with him, if you know what I mean. Razz
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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 14 2012, 13:29

@Starstrider wrote:
True, but I can't really see Vect or Lelith willing to put up with him, if you know what I mean. Razz

very true indeed haha I'm planning to add the Duke at 1850, I figure that wouldn't be too weird of a combo.

I will admit that without the Baron I've had less luck with my beasts but I was also new to using the unit at the time, back when I still had the Baron in the big unit of hellions (Ooooh 5th edition Razz ). But yeah I wouldn't let not having the Baron stop you from using them, just the lack of grenades kinda sucks and you just may need to beef up the unit with some more beasts in order to boost its survivability which may at the same time make the unit a bit too pricey... I've also had them get punked by a tactical squad because the beasts sustained too many wounds due to going last to win combat.
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teh603
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 14 2012, 13:59

@RocketRollRebel wrote:

I will admit that without the Baron I've had less luck with my beasts but I was also new to using the unit at the time, back when I still had the Baron in the big unit of hellions (Ooooh 5th edition Razz ). But yeah I wouldn't let not having the Baron stop you from using them, just the lack of grenades kinda sucks and you just may need to beef up the unit with some more beasts in order to boost its survivability which may at the same time make the unit a bit too pricey... I've also had them get punked by a tactical squad because the beasts sustained too many wounds due to going last to win combat.
Take a Clawed Fiend as a wound dump?

Edit: Now that I think about it, Clawed Fiends might actually have been our intended wound dump for Look Out Sir saves and the like. Their "auto-parry" is to absorb the wound and gain +1A, and there's not really another way to get Wounds on one without risking getting it killed too fast.
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 14 2012, 16:22

Oh I will use the Baron as he adds a great deal to the unit. I'm sure the Cult of Strife as plenty of talented Beastmasters I can use as a count-as Baron. I think the Duke is another character who will go with anyone except perhaps some Archons. Even then, you can use him to represent a powerful Dracon. That's what I plan to do in the Kabal of the Black Heart anyway.

Indeed, with the control of the flow of wounds we can get by putting Beastmasters and/or the Baron at the front of a unit, a Clawed Fiend may be viable. I dunno, I 'm just searching for a reason to use one of them in a unit. Smile
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 14 2012, 16:25

@Starstrider wrote:
Oh I will use the Baron as he adds a great deal to the unit. I'm sure the Cult of Strife as plenty of talented Beastmasters I can use as a count-as Baron. I think the Duke is another character who will go with anyone except perhaps some Archons. Even then, you can use him to represent a powerful Dracon. That's what I plan to do in the Kabal of the Black Heart anyway.

Indeed, with the control of the flow of wounds we can get by putting Beastmasters and/or the Baron at the front of a unit, a Clawed Fiend may be viable. I dunno, I 'm just searching for a reason to use one of them in a unit. Smile

I was originally planning on using one but I decided that I didn't want to pay for T5 that I never got to use.

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 14 2012, 16:54

True but they're still awesome and a nice place to dump lascannon shots. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 02 2012, 02:35

The only way a CF will be viable is to run an entire unit of them. (Thanks Majority T). I was looking at this build yesterday and here are some stats:

5 Beastmasters w/ 5 Clawed Fiends

- 25 T5 Wounds: across just 10 bases (5 Termie 5 small flying) we have 25 T5 wounds. Thats tough to find in our codex. Start these guys with a Haemie, take his pain token then blast up the board. Keep to as much cover as possible. Keep your Beastmasters at the front to control where the wounds go. Str10 can go on Beastmasters, (as they will double out a CF) the rest of the stuff can go where you see fit. Adding in the Baron makes LoS even better.

- Speed: over 2 turns, these guys can travel an avg over 28" (move 12" + run 4" + move 12") and then they charge.

- On the Charge: assuming no Wounds have been lost (and the CF get better of course) these guys charge in with 25 Str5 attacks, if we're hitting vehicles that works out to about 5 glances (if moved) Many more if stationary. (Manticore tanks anyone)

- Comparison to other Close Combat AT units: Beasts range is 12" + Charge (we'll say 7 for avg) so 19" which is the same for Wyches out of a Raider and better than Grotesques. They are 70pts more expensive than 10 Haywire Wyches in a Raider but are way more resilient. Lascannons, no problem, Psycannons, no problem. Missile Launchers, no problem.

- 5 Characters: 5 opportunities to LoS wounds away. I was just reading over the rules for LoS, nothing says that you must apply wounds to an already unwounded model, but please correct and point me to the right section.....an excellent way of getting the CF's number of attacks up.

I'll be running 2 units of these tough lil' critters at my next 1999 game in a weeks time. I'll be using them to wreck as many tanks as possible.

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CovenoftheDamned
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 23 2012, 03:37

I love using beasts! With the new FAQ to LoS it's a bit harder to allocate wounds directly where one wants them.. To compensate I just run a larger unit. 3Masters 5Dogs and 6Swarms. More expensive but ensures that they will still hit like titanium bricks when they get there. I also have the blob squad of Hellions with Mr. Baron deployed. Opponents have trouble choosing the correct target, when in reality neither are the "correct" target because both wreck face. Ive had great succes with these two units on the frontlines. Deploy both as far up as possible move a foot at a time and...you know...win Smile
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 23 2012, 07:51

Quote :
What about the occasional power lance on the beastmaster instead of the usual agonizer?
No, just no, no weapon upgrade at all. 1 atack base and no splinter weapon.

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CovenoftheDamned
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 23 2012, 15:49

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
What about the occasional power lance on the beastmaster instead of the usual agonizer?
No, just no, no weapon upgrade at all. 1 atack base and no splinter weapon.

Agreed
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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 25 2012, 06:41

@1++ wrote:
The only way a CF will be viable is to run an entire unit of them. (Thanks Majority T). I was looking at this build yesterday and here are some stats:

5 Beastmasters w/ 5 Clawed Fiends

..................

I'll be running 2 units of these tough lil' critters at my next 1999 game in a weeks time. I'll be using them to wreck as many tanks as possible.

You read my mind, 1++. I have been toying with this idea for a while now, for all the reasons you outlined, and want to run a couple of these units just for pure, evil fun.

The main issue I have had is the actual models, CF's aren't cheap. I think I have a suitable alternative in mind, but they will take a while to construct. What are you using?
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 25 2012, 11:45

I'm using some old D&D models I found on Ebay, re-based - they aren't perfect but better than nothing.

Its a shame they changed the LOS! rules on us, makes it harder to share the wounds around the squad, but overwatch is nothing on these guys, they love it. Also not bad at WWP escorts too if need be.

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CovenoftheDamned
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PostSubject: Re: Non-WWP Beastmasters?   Non-WWP Beastmasters? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 26 2012, 02:18

"Its a shame they changed the LOS! rules on us, makes it harder to share the wounds around the squad, but overwatch is nothing on these guys, they love it. Also not bad at WWP escorts too if need be."

Agreed. A good player should anticipate the over-watch and if its small arms fire have his/her razorwing flocks up front and equidistant (obviously much harder to pull off) to absorb the shots. At least in my opinion.

Escorting a WWP eh? Never tried that... If only a heamie could ride a skyboard!
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