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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:58

Well the thing is the Sx2 will be changed to Base S according to HoW, the AP2 will change to AP -. The rest of the rules apply.

For example

Normal Thunder Hammer: Sx2 AP2 Melee, Concussive, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy.

Thunder Hammer under the affect of HoW: S AP - @ I10 Melee, Concussive Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy

Edit: This only applies to the additional Attack granted by HoW.

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Last edited by Kayto_Karite on Wed Aug 01 2012, 16:01; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:59

@Aroshamash wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

Flip that around for a moment. If the attack was made using your weapons then why does it not use the weapons profile? This is a permissive ruleset. If the rules don't tell us we can do something then we can't.

We don't use our close combat weaponry when making an attack, like the rulebook tells us? Where does it state this? As I stated, the rules for HoW give the model an additional attack. Yes, it states what the S and AP value are, but to all other intents and purposes, it is an attack made by the model, and as such follows all the rules about making attacks in close combat, as you state, including the rule saying we can use our close combat weapons when making close combat attacks.

This is where we disagree. The rulebook tells us to use the profile of our weapon when we attack but HoW does not tell us that. It tells us the profile of the attack, albeit written longhand rather than tabulated. In the absence of anything telling us that other special rules, wargear or qualities of weapons apply then a premissive ruleset tells us they do not.

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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 16:22

In my opinion there is a difference between a Profile and "Resolved at"

Profile would be

Additional Attack (provided by HoW) Range:- S:S AP: - Type: Melee

Resolved would be

BA Captain with JP/TH vs Haemonculus
Attack:
Roll to Hit: Auto-Hit
Roll to Wound: 4+ (S4(8*) vs T4)
Roll to Save: 6+ (AP2 is set to AP -)
Fails both Save and FNP
Haemonculus now suffers Concussion

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 14:38

@Kayto_Karite wrote:
@Shadows Revenge

If you agree at SR Poisoned on unit affects HoWs additonal Attack. Would you agree that all SRs work with HoWs addtional Attack?

Also, what is your opinion on Wargear and CCW with SRs affecting HoWs additional Attack?

Here is this difference. HoW attacks are not like the aditional attack gained by having 2 CCW, it is another attack gain with the stats of S User, AP- at I10. If you were to start adding weapon effects, then you go into some stupid things (like how does unwieldy and I10 work? does that mean my HoW happens at the I1?)

basically think of them as impact hits in fantasy (which is exactly what they are) Which means that any bonus gained from weapons arent transfered to the attack.

Now if the Unit had poison USR at all times, then yes, they would gain it against the HoW attacks (btw, I checked out daemons in 40k today, and my example last time of a jump plaguebearer wouldnt have it either, considering their weapon is what gives them 4+ poison) So no, you dont gain the 2+ wound from a venom blade w/ HoW attacks

As for re-roll drugs. They make it so that every attack gains a re-roll to wound, so as HoW is an attack, then you would gain the re-roll. This is the same for having +1 S drug making hellions HoW resolve at S4 instead of S3... as drugs change your model's profile until the end of the game.

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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 14:43

Quote :
Here is this difference. HoW attacks are not like the aditional attack gained by having 2 CCW, it is another attack gain with the stats of S User, AP- at I10. If you were to start adding weapon effects, then you go into some stupid things (like how does unwieldy and I10 work? does that mean my HoW happens at the I1?)

In the situation about HoW I10 set modifier and Unwieldly I1 set modifier, you will have to follow the Exception rule on pg.9. You decided which effect takes place first.

For Example
Model with TH/JP using HoW
Unwieldly will set your I4 to I1
Then HoW will set that additional Attack to I10

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 15:37

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Aroshamash wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

Flip that around for a moment. If the attack was made using your weapons then why does it not use the weapons profile? This is a permissive ruleset. If the rules don't tell us we can do something then we can't.

We don't use our close combat weaponry when making an attack, like the rulebook tells us? Where does it state this? As I stated, the rules for HoW give the model an additional attack. Yes, it states what the S and AP value are, but to all other intents and purposes, it is an attack made by the model, and as such follows all the rules about making attacks in close combat, as you state, including the rule saying we can use our close combat weapons when making close combat attacks.

This is where we disagree. The rulebook tells us to use the profile of our weapon when we attack but HoW does not tell us that. It tells us the profile of the attack, albeit written longhand rather than tabulated. In the absence of anything telling us that other special rules, wargear or qualities of weapons apply then a premissive ruleset tells us they do not.

I'm not sure I follow this.

Suppose I have the Painbringer combat drug, which allows me to re-roll failed To Wound rolls in close combat (Codex p. 25). The natural assumption I'd have thought is that is now a permission that applies in all contexts unless otherwise negated.

You seem to be saying it can't be used with a HoW attack because not explicitly permitted (again) by the HoW rules. But nor is it explicitly permitted by the rules for CCWs, power weapons, etc. Does this mean that I can never actually use my combat drug because it needs to be permitted by the rules of the attack I'm making, as well as the drug rule itself?

Simply saying 'it's a permissive ruleset' doesn't really resolve things. The point is that there's a general permission - to use various special rules including weapons in close combat - and there's nothing in this specific rule that exempts it from that general permission.

Maybe there should be, maybe it will be FAQed that way later, but RAW there would need to be something that revokes the general permission. Otherwise what you say amounts to needing specific permission to use your special rules in every instance.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 15:53

@Ben_S wrote:
Simply saying 'it's a permissive ruleset' doesn't really resolve things. The point is that there's a general permission - to use various special rules including weapons in close combat - and there's nothing in this specific rule that exempts it from that general permission.

Re-reading the rules last night I didn't actually find the part that says we always use the profile of our weapon when making ALL attacks. Anyone able to locate this for me?

In any event, as I previously mentioned, the HoW rules give us all the elements of a weapon profile. We have range, S, AP and special rules so I'm curious as to why we are looking to use something else? The HoW is basically telling us to perform an extra attack with the profile given (Range -, S User, Ap -, Special Always strike at I10)

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 16:00

@Count Adhemar wrote:

In any event, as I previously mentioned, the HoW rules give us all the elements of a weapon profile. We have range, S, AP and special rules so I'm curious as to why we are looking to use something else? The HoW is basically telling us to perform an extra attack with the profile given (Range -, S User, Ap -, Special Always strike at I10)

Ok, accepting for sake of argument that this is indeed a weapon profile (which may be RAI), I still don't see why you apparently think it would exclude the re-roll due to combat drugs. I'm not sure if you do in fact think this, since you didn't really address that example, but it seems to be the implication of your earlier remarks [emphasis added by me]:

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Attempting to make anything else work with this, whether it's weaponry, wargear or special rules is just blatantly trying to game the system.

As I said, I don't recall any other weapon profile that explicitly says you can use your re-roll due to combat drugs. So presumably if you can use it at all, then you can use it with a HoW attack too.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 17:01

I like the idea of HoW being it's own Weapon profile. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 05 2012, 01:13

I have a question.

How many units are we talking about here? I've not played that many games in 6th but this affects jump inf and MCs yes? Any others I've missed?

2 main things spring to mind as to whether these are basic attacks using your special weapons.

1 initial 10. That is not standard.

2 auto hit people! That is not standard!

IMO you are told, quite clearly how this works. So no concussion. No force weapons. No poison.

User S, AP - at initial 10. That's all.

Rerolls........ well it is still a CC attack so probably....
'
S buff from drugs or cc weapon? NO! Unmodified S! It is pretty clear.

I may well have missed something here but what units are we really talking about. Reeavers and helions pretty much as the only units with the usr and drugs.

Anything else seems reaching as far as I can see.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 06 2012, 10:02

Same arguments, different players. Smile

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