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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 10:19

@tlronin wrote:

- So to everything that dictates how to resolve 'to wound' rolls I say: No. Things like venom blades, Poisonous SR, etc... The HoW SR prevents the use of these by saying explicitly 'unmodified Strength'. Crisp and clear.
--> To clarify even further, if you rolled the +1 S Combat Drugs you couldn't use it for your HoW Attack. Again: unmodified Strength. So the HoW SR prohibits this.

- To the effect of the Combat Drugs (reroll wounds) I say: Yes. You misquoted me there. There's nothing in the hoW SR which prohibits the effect of this drug roll. Needed to correct this. I said you cán actually use this effect of our Combat Drugs.

Ok, I thought you were against using any combat drugs too, so I had your position wrong there - my apologies. But I'm somewhat baffled as to why you think combat drugs (to re-roll wounds) are clearly allowed and poison not.

'Unmodified Strength' clearly excludes Strength modifiers (such as +1S combat drugs or a power axe) but I don't see why it excludes using Poison - a Poison attack still has a Strength value, which must be your unmodified one, but it's not itself a Strength bonus.

So suppose you had a model (I don't know what) with a base S of 3, a power axe (giving S 4) and Poison 4+. Your HoW attack should clearly be at S3, but what says you can't use the Poison 4+ to wound? (True nothing says you can, but nothing says you can use the combat drugs to re-roll either.)
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 10:34

@Ben_S: Because using your poison (read: a fixed number) directly effects how you 'resolve' the 'to wound' rule, which is in direct violation with the HoW rule. HoW says to 'resolve at (unmodified) S'. This says to me I should check the S against the T in that 'to wound' table in the rulebook. And not a fixed number. See where I'm coming from?

Now as for the Combat Drug effect to reroll the failed to wound rolls is something I don't see violating the HoW rule. You already rolled against the unmodified strength, so you can check that of HoW's box if you will. Now your effect of your Combat Drugs kick in, which allows you to reroll failed to wound rolls.

Well, atleast, this is how I read it pure RAW. I try to read it another way, but I can't.

I must say to be honest, I'm discussing this with friends right now and they don't see it like me either. We decided RAI and exclude all other wargear and SRs and everything you can think of for the HoW attack. To keep things simple.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 11:21

@tlronin wrote:
HoW says to 'resolve at (unmodified) S'. This says to me I should check the S against the T in that 'to wound' table in the rulebook. And not a fixed number. See where I'm coming from?

I see where you're coming from, but I don't see that you have to read the rule that way. As I pointed out earlier, a Poison attack still has a Strength value and that does have an influence, e.g. whether you get to re-roll to wound. So using the 4+ to wound doesn't mean you're not also using unmodified Strength in some way.

It seems arbitrary to me to say that the combat drug allowing re-rolls to wound works, though the +1S combat drug doesn't and the Poison USR which (in certain conditions) allows re-rolls to wound doesn't. (I see that the +1S is of course explicitly excluded by the RAW, but maybe the re-roll should also not be allowed.)

Out of curiosity, what would you say to re-rolling 'to wound' based on Poison USR if your unmodified S is equal to or greater than your opponents Toughness? Is that allowed, even though you have to use the Strength against Toughness table rather than the Poison value?
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 11:37

@Ben_S wrote:
Out of curiosity, what would you say to re-rolling 'to wound' based on Poison USR if your unmodified S is equal to or greater than your opponents Toughness? Is that allowed, even though you have to use the Strength against Toughness table rather than the Poison value?

Yeah my friends asked me the same thing. And I found this the most difficult to answer to be honest. If I continue my line of thinking you would say that because you can't use your poisonous attacks all together for this additional attack (the HoW attack) you skip the entire Poisonous SR when you perform the HoW attack. So IMHO no rerolls if I understand it correctly RAW.

Quick note on the 'arbitrary'. I've tried for a few posts now to make it not arbitrary. Clearly I've failed. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:07

@Kayto_Karite wrote:


Ok I may be wrong because I don't have the codex on hand at the moment only the BRB.

Isn't Combat Drugs cosidered Wargear?

If Combat Drug is a wargear then according to your answer you shouldn't be allowed to use the effect of Combat Drugs.

Where you're getting confused is that the Venom Blade isn't just Wargear, it's a weapon. When using a Hammer of Wrath attack, you're not hitting with your weapons, you're physically slamming into them, and as such don't get the benefits from weapons. However, the Combat Drugs are always in effect, because they affect the physical model, in a sense, not just his weapons. They work regardless of whether he's attacking with his ccw or his fists. As such, to me, Combat Drugs affect HoW attacks.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:09

@Aroshamash wrote:
@Kayto_Karite wrote:


Ok I may be wrong because I don't have the codex on hand at the moment only the BRB.

Isn't Combat Drugs cosidered Wargear?

If Combat Drug is a wargear then according to your answer you shouldn't be allowed to use the effect of Combat Drugs.

Where you're getting confused is that the Venom Blade isn't just Wargear, it's a weapon. When using a Hammer of Wrath attack, you're not hitting with your weapons, you're physically slamming into them, and as such don't get the benefits from weapons. However, the Combat Drugs are always in effect, because they affect the physical model, in a sense, not just his weapons. They work regardless of whether he's attacking with his ccw or his fists. As such, to me, Combat Drugs affect HoW attacks.

Oh my gosh, I have someone that agrees with me? I thought I was going mad! Crying or Very sad

cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:21

Actually, reading over the rule again, I think it really needs to be cleared up. What I posted above is what I'd like it to be changed to, but it seems that's not how it works. It doesn't mention that Wargear is ignored, true, but it also doesn't state that weapons aren't either. To me, this means that, as the rule currently stands, weapon effects that don't modify S or AP do in fact carry over to the HoW attack, so your Venom Blade technically works. After all, a model attacks with its weapons, unless it's specifically stated that it doesn't. Nothing in HoW says they don't use weapons, they just state what S and AP they hit at. Sorry there, tlronin.

Personally, I don't think that was intended, and I think it should be that weapons are ignored for the purpose of the HoW attack, but Wargear is not.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:23

Argh, so close.

Why do you think a Venom Blade works, when the attack has to be resolved against the model's S?

If you use a Venom Blade the attack is nót resolved against the model's S, but a fixed number.

*continues to dwindle in madness*

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:40

Quote :
Where you're getting confused is that the Venom Blade isn't just Wargear, it's a weapon. When using a Hammer of Wrath attack, you're not hitting with your weapons, you're physically slamming into them, and as such don't get the benefits from weapons. However, the Combat Drugs are always in effect, because they affect the physical model, in a sense, not just his weapons. They work regardless of whether he's attacking with his ccw or his fists. As such, to me, Combat Drugs affect HoW attacks.

This is just a personal gripe. No where in the rules does it say that your physically slamming into the unit. The fluffy section in HoW might say you are trampling and/or crushing the foe. This doesn't translate to the rules. The rules just states an "additonal Attack" resolved at unmodified S and etc...

He is my question then. Lets forget about VB for a moment. What would you suggest about Power Mauls? Can you still use the SR Concussive rule? or do not use the weapon at all? SR Concussive doesn't have an relatation to the Attack, its just an abilitiy triggered by a unswaved wound. Also, it's still unclear if you use weapons at all, it just says an additional attack. Which leads me to believe that you can use a weapon that has special rules such as SR Shred, SR Concussive, SR Blind, SR Strikedown etc...

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:47

@Kayto_Karite wrote:
Quote :
Where you're getting confused is that the Venom Blade isn't just Wargear, it's a weapon. When using a Hammer of Wrath attack, you're not hitting with your weapons, you're physically slamming into them, and as such don't get the benefits from weapons. However, the Combat Drugs are always in effect, because they affect the physical model, in a sense, not just his weapons. They work regardless of whether he's attacking with his ccw or his fists. As such, to me, Combat Drugs affect HoW attacks.

This is just a personal gripe. No where in the rules does it say that your physically slamming into the unit. The fluffy section in HoW might say you are trampling and/or crushing the foe. This doesn't translate to the rules. The rules just states an "additonal Attack" resolved at unmodified S and etc...

He is my question then. Lets forget about VB for a moment. What would you suggest about Power Mauls? Can you still use the SR Concussive rule? or do not use the weapon at all? SR Concussive doesn't have an relatation to the Attack, its just an abilitiy triggered by a unswaved wound. Also, it's still unclear if you use weapons at all, it just says an additional attack. Which leads me to believe that you can use a weapon that has special rules such as SR Shred, SR Concussive, SR Blind, SR Strikedown etc...

I see HoW as an attack with it's own profile
I10 S as user AP-

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:51

Are you lot deliberately trying to find exploits here? It's painfully obvious that the HoW does exactly what it says on the tin. One extra attack at basic S and AP '-'. Attempting to make anything else work with this, whether it's weaponry, wargear or special rules is just blatantly trying to game the system.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:52

@Aroshamash wrote:
When using a Hammer of Wrath attack, you're not hitting with your weapons, you're physically slamming into them, and as such don't get the benefits from weapons. However, the Combat Drugs are always in effect, because they affect the physical model, in a sense, not just his weapons. They work regardless of whether he's attacking with his ccw or his fists. As such, to me, Combat Drugs affect HoW attacks.

It would make sense if the rules said 'no bonuses of any kind from weapons', but the 'unmodified Strength' bit implies that Strength bonuses from combat drugs don't apply. It's hard to see the logic behind one combat drug working and another not, particularly if as you say the drug affects the model and is always in effect.

Maybe the rule should be FAQed this way (viz no bonuses of any kind from weapons, but other wargear such as combat drugs do work, including to boost Strength), but that's not what it currently says.

(And I concur with Kayto_Karite about the fluff point: some units I can imagine physically slamming into their opponents but not, say, Swooping Hawks - so in some cases I think HoW is best interpreted as representing the opportunity to strike first with one's weapons.)
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:55

Apparently, you do get the effects of Concussive, accordind to strict RAW. After all, you're still using your Power Maul to hit, but you ignore its S modification and AP value. As for the Venom Blade, you get its effect because a Venom Blade still hits at the strength of the model, it just always wounds on a certain value. After all, "always wounds on 2+" makes no changes to your S, does it? So, the Venom Blade makes no modifications to your S, it makes no changes to AP, but its extra effect, in that it has a Poisoned value of 2+, still remains.

In fact, the Poisoned rule always takes account of the models S, at least in close combat, as you can get a re-roll if your S is equal or higher than their T value. It's only in shooting with Poisoned Weapons that they have no S value. CC, they most definitely do.

Quote :

It doesn't JUST say it's an additional attack. The rule proceeds with clarifying how that attack MUST be done. Explicitly.

Yes, yes it does. It states that it hits at unmodified S and AP-. Other than that, it makes no changes to how the attack is carried out. It is still a close combat attack, therefore the model is allowed to make use of its close combat weaponry. Nothing states that it doesn't, and therefore the rule allowing you to use your melee weapons in close combat still applies. Please point to the part where it states that you ignore weaponry with HoW.

Quote :
It's hard to see the logic behind one combat drug working and another not, particularly if as you say the drug affects the model and is always in effect.

I never said it was logical, I merely stated that the rule explicitly states that the models unmodified Strength is used, and that it hits at AP-, but that other than that, there are no restrictions/modifications. As such, you're allowed to re-roll to Wound, as there's nothing stating that Combat Drugs aren't taken into account for this strike. Even the +1S combat drug technically is still applied, it's just that it's then ignored because we use the unmodified strength of the model.

Quote :
Are you lot deliberately trying to find exploits here? It's painfully obvious that the HoW does exactly what it says on the tin. One extra attack at basic S and AP '-'. Attempting to make anything else work with this, whether it's weaponry, wargear or special rules is just blatantly trying to game the system.

Yes, one extra basic attack. Close combat attacks are made using your close combat weapons. Point me to exactly where it states they aren't. Yes, HoW changes what S and AP said attack is made at, but it's still a melee attack, and as such benefits from your melee gear. Nothing states it doesn't. It's a close combat attack. If it wasn't supposed to use the weapons, it shouldn't state they get an extra attack, but rather that the model inflicts a hit at S:user, AP-. It doesn't say that, however. It states they make an attack. Until you can prove to me that you're not allowed to use your weapons when making attacks in close combat, I'll assume you can.

To be fair though, I've said this isn't how I'd personally play it, merely that that's what it says via RAW. I don't think weapons should be used for this attack, but wargear definitely should.

Quote :
Totally dislike the unmodified S bit (because I'm S3), you know what... I'll ignore that bit and just hit with my blade! 2+ poison awesomeness!

For the last time, Venom Blades do not modify the Strength of the model! They always wound on 2+, yes, but that's an entirely different thing than changing your Strength. Using a Poisoned 2+ weapon at S3 is a very different thing than Poisoned 2+ at S10, for example, in that it changes what you get your re-roll against.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:58

@Ben_S wrote:
[so in some cases I think HoW is best interpreted as representing the opportunity to strike first with one's weapons.)

So I do a HoW with my Helliarch with my Venom Blade: "resolved at unmodified Strength AP - at I10". Ok, I like the I10 bit, so i'll use that. Not fond of the AP - bit, but oh wel... It's so darn explicit. Totally dislike the unmodified S bit (because I'm S3), you know what... I'll ignore that bit and just hit with my blade! 2+ poison awesomeness!

scratch

@Aroshamash:

Where does it state that you dó use your weapon?

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:02

Well Venom Blade does use str, it just wounds on 2+ regardless of strength or toughness and if your str >= their Toughness then you get a re-roll. So unless they say your not using your weapon I can't see how being resolved at base str is in any way in violation of the venom blade rules.

It doesn't actually say it's an impact attack either, only on Jump infantry does it say they are getting the bonus from the Impact, for everyone else it says it's an attack seeking to crush or trample. Just to be clear.

Hopefully they will FAQ soon, it sounds like it can really go either way though.

My playgroup is allowing me the venom blade and the combat drugs, that also means I'm allowing them the force weapon instant death and the thunder hammer concussive for their MCs until they FAQ it otherwise
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:06

@Seshiru wrote:
My playgroup is allowing me the venom blade and the combat drugs, that also means I'm allowing them the force weapon instant death and the thunder hammer concussive for their MCs until they FAQ it otherwise

Yeah you can also decide that and be done with it.

My gamegroup decided the complete opposite. Nothing is allowed. Pure and simple HoW.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:07

@tlronin wrote:

@Aroshamash:

Where does it state that you dó use your weapon?

In the part where you get to use your melee weapons when making attacks in close combat. Hammer of Wrath is a close combat attack, yes? It allows you to make an extra attack, yes? An attack, in close combat, yes? Therefore, it is a close combat attack, and as such is subject to the rules of close combat attacks, one of which is that when performing a close combat attack, a model makes use of its close combat weapons. Unless of course you're trying to argue that you can never actually use a Venom Blade, or any other sort of close combat weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:08

@Aroshamash wrote:
@tlronin wrote:

@Aroshamash:

Where does it state that you dó use your weapon?

In the part where you get to use your melee weapons when making attacks in close combat. Hammer of Wrath is a close combat attack, yes? It allows you to make an extra attack, yes? An attack, in close combat, yes? Therefore, it is a close combat attack, and as such is subject to the rules of close combat attacks, one of which is that when performing a close combat attack, a model makes use of its close combat weapons. Unless of course you're trying to argue that you can never actually use a Venom Blade, or any other sort of close combat weapon.

It's not a close combat attack like any other attack. It's a HoW attack with it's own rules.

BUT...

I understand where you are coming from better now (and also Ben_S + Kyro) and I have the opinion now that it should be FAQed. It's not that crisp and clear as I thought it was.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:16

It makes an additional attack. Not an attack, but an additional attack, implying that it follows the same rules as all its other attacks, except where stated otherwise. Nothing states it doesn't use weapons. Therefore, it can use weapons.

Now, I'm bowing out of this one, because I don't think I'm going to change your mind, and I'm actually of your opinion. I've stated that personally, a HoW attack shouldn't use weapons, but rather be an "impact hit" of them slamming into the unit. It really needs an FAQ to clear it up, as it can be argued either way. Personally, I feel that RAW states weapons can be used, but I also think that in this case RAW is stupid and makes no sense "cinematically". Wargear I want kept, as you're always using that, but not weapons.


All this rules-lawyering and RAW-ing has made me feel dirty... I'm off to take a shower, and hopefully feel a little cleaner once I'm done...

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:21

It looks like there's finally one thing we all agree on: this needs addressing by the FAQ and it's probably fruitless to continue the present debate, since we're just repeating ourselves (and perhaps even talking at cross purposes, about what the rule is, what it should be, etc)
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:25

@Aroshamash
Additional --> implies --> follows same rules... In my opinion it IS stated otherwise and in regards to that I've not changed my mind indeed. Sorry.

But as you've seen in my previous post I totally see where you're coming from. And yes, I noticed by RAI you agreed with me, don't worry. It's the RAW we are discussing.

Last but not least, what makes it that people find it difficult to discuss rules? We ought to all play the same game, therefor you sometimes get discussions. It's not a bad thing. What is this negative attitude against RAW? RAI everybody can play the game they want and end up playing chess with WH40K miniatures. You can do that too, go ahead. So my point is, your last remark is a bit unnecessary... As if i'm dirty for wanting to discuss this rule.

@Ben_S:

Agreed.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:26

@Aroshamash wrote:
Quote :
Are you lot deliberately trying to find exploits here? It's painfully obvious that the HoW does exactly what it says on the tin. One extra attack at basic S and AP '-'. Attempting to make anything else work with this, whether it's weaponry, wargear or special rules is just blatantly trying to game the system.

Yes, one extra basic attack. Close combat attacks are made using your close combat weapons. Point me to exactly where it states they aren't. Yes, HoW changes what S and AP said attack is made at, but it's still a melee attack, and as such benefits from your melee gear. Nothing states it doesn't. It's a close combat attack. If it wasn't supposed to use the weapons, it shouldn't state they get an extra attack, but rather that the model inflicts a hit at S:user, AP-. It doesn't say that, however. It states they make an attack. Until you can prove to me that you're not allowed to use your weapons when making attacks in close combat, I'll assume you can.

Flip that around for a moment. If the attack was made using your weapons then why does it not use the weapons profile? This is a permissive ruleset. If the rules don't tell us we can do something then we can't.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:31

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It's not a close combat attack like any other attack. It's a HoW attack with it's own rules.

I mentioned this before, but HoW Attacks doesn't exist. HoW is a SR that grants an additional Attack with certain rules when certain conditions are met. This is another personal gripe, it's the same when someone says they will take a FNP Save, FNP isn't a Save its a SR that has a Trigger and Effect. Saying things like HoW Attack can cause confusion among readers and players.

I'm glad we are all coming to a united understanding of HoW. I agree that HoW should be FAQ for clarity. Either make it an additonal Attack that doesn't use any further SRs, Wargear, and CCW or state that all other Close Combat Rules apply (SRs, Wargear, CCW). Just RAW alone an additonal Attack is just that an Attack. Attacks use SRs and CCW, I do agree that no matter what this additional Attack should be resolved at Base S and AP- at I10, but SRs on CCW, Wargear, and Unit SRs should be applied like any other Attack.

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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Flip that around for a moment. If the attack was made using your weapons then why does it not use the weapons profile? This is a permissive ruleset. If the rules don't tell us we can do something then we can't.

We don't use our close combat weaponry when making an attack, like the rulebook tells us? Where does it state this? As I stated, the rules for HoW give the model an additional attack. Yes, it states what the S and AP value are, but to all other intents and purposes, it is an attack made by the model, and as such follows all the rules about making attacks in close combat, as you state, including the rule saying we can use our close combat weapons when making close combat attacks.

I definitely agree with you in that this is a permissive rules-set. As such, when something states that you do something, it needs to state that you cannot do the normal thing in a given situation, such as making an attack. As Kayto_Karite states, there's no such thing as a HoW attack, technically, only an attack given by the HoW rule, which follows both the rules for close combat attacks and HoW. Now, we've got the rules for close combat attacks, which state that a model makes the number of attacks given on its profile (HoW modifies this, giving us one extra), at our Initiative Step (once again, modified), that we use the S value of our profile (once again, modified to exclude changes from other factors), and that we benefit from the rules of our close combat weapons. Now, this is where it gets annoying. The rules permit us to make use of our close combat weapons when attacking in melee, and the HoW makes no change to this. What it does do is set the AP value of the attack. So, this permissive ruleset is allowing us to make use of our melee weapons, and nothing is removing that permission. That permission is being modified, but not removed.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Wrath questions   Hammer of Wrath questions - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:51

@Kayto_Karite wrote:
all other Close Combat Rules apply (SRs, Wargear, CCW).

I can just image assault marines with an AUTO HIT initiantive 10 powerfist attack at the start of combat. The sky really would be falling then. Smile

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