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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 09:19

This is not a topic about whether bloodbrides should be run in the first place or not, rather how best to equip them when running a squad of four to escort a character in a venom.

So far I have considered:

4 bloodbrides, Siren, venom blade

The siren gives some extra leadership (not needed because of the character) a bit of extra punch with the venom blade whilst remaining cheap. Additionally she is a character so won't go down as quickly as a normal wych weapon model as she has a 4+ LoS.

In small groups like this are haywire grenades worth considering? Is taking a wych weapon? Or are they just a waste of points?

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 11:57

4 brides, one siren with a venomblade is according to my math the most point efficient unit.
I assume you’re going to run them in your rever army, so with all those heat lances I wouldn’t bother with the haywire grenades.
I find yourself with 10 point and nothing to spend it on, you could consider a razorfalil
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 15:31

I like having the Hydra Gauntlet, just for the unpredictable number of attacks.

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 16:26

From my angle, the hydra gauntlet does not look that fabulez.
A normal bride has 4 attacks on the charge, and a hg have 3+1d6, so far so god.
But the normal bride can also shoot her splinter pistol prior to charge.
And the pistol shoot has a better change to wound whatever we are attacking
Now it’s more like 5 attacks to 3+1d6, so we have to roll 3-4 for the gantlet to be slightly useful, and if a 1-2 is rolled, is actually preforming worse than a bride without one.
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 17:01

Dont forget the HG can throw a plasma grenade, S4 AP4 blast, same to wound (on average, better vs T3)and better armor pen than pistol, plus could hit more than one model.

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 17:09

@Talos wrote:
From my angle, the hydra gauntlet does not look that fabulez.
A normal bride has 4 attacks on the charge, and a hg have 3+1d6, so far so god.
But the normal bride can also shoot her splinter pistol prior to charge.
And the pistol shoot has a better change to wound whatever we are attacking
Now it’s more like 5 attacks to 3+1d6, so we have to roll 3-4 for the gantlet to be slightly useful, and if a 1-2 is rolled, is actually preforming worse than a bride without one.

I am well aware of that, but that is on a one or a two. There is a thirty three point three percent chance of that happening, and I like taking risks.
My play style is very much about risk taking. I have been known to base my entire army of of risks at times, and it doesn't always work, but when it does it is worth savouring the look on your enemy's face.
I don't like to play competitively, I play for fun, so Hydra Gauntlets suit me.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 17:49

@Cavash wrote:
I like having the Hydra Gauntlet, just for the unpredictable number of attacks.

I can see the appeal, although mathematically the flails perform better on average sometimes "average" isn't enough to turn things around. This can be handy when sacrificing wyches as they normally take a turn or two to die, you can sacrifice them and there is a small chance that the extreme result (rolling a 5-6) that can be generated by the gauntlets can push things in your favour, where as a consistent result would not have been enough.

So far I only get wych weapons when I have the points, I used to be a big fan of the shardnet and impaler however with the new wound location I just don't see the model lasting long. Hence the choosing a Siren/hekatrix and going for the venom blade.

How's peoples experience of keeping these "wych weapons" alive so far?

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 18:17

@Mushkilla wrote:

How's peoples experience of keeping these "wych weapons" alive so far?

Not good, but then only played one game so far and they fell foul of a vindicator's demolisher cannon (oops!) My scourges took revenge though, double six making a smoky ruin of it.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 18:46

I use gauntlets for number of attacks and obviously shardnets for survivability. What I don't like about flails is that they're mostly wasted if you get re-roll to wound on your drugs roll.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 29 2012, 10:43

if you are running them with Succubus then go far Agoniser Syren to compliment HQ.

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 29 2012, 18:28

Azdrubael: if you are using VB on HQ, then the VB on the syren is complementing it the best.
anyway, VB is about the same effectiveness as agoniser, just for less points Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 05:00

Just voicing that your orignial set-up does sound best. Cheapest, most points efficient, and the character in the BB can help protect the IC you're guarding anyway. As far as grenades, you'll want to be throwing plasma anyway with what they should be targeting.

As far as wych weapons? I tend to err on the side of survivability, and the PGL is the same cost as a shardnet and seems to be of more use against dangerous overwatch units you might want to single charge.
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 07:42

@Roc wrote:

As far as wych weapons? I tend to err on the side of survivability, and the PGL is the same cost as a shardnet and seems to be of more use against dangerous overwatch units you might want to single charge.

That's the similar conclusion I have come too. I would normally only get wych weapons if I have Xpts floating around, and now that the PGL really helps on overwatch and not to mention is on the Siren so it at least get's a 4+ LoS.

I understand not taking the Haywire, it seems like unnecessary bloat.

Rather then starting a new topic altogether. What are peoples thoughts on wych squads?

Venoms or Raiders? 5 or 10? Is the extra splinter cannon worth it on venoms now that they are more squishy to rapid fire, especially when carrying wyches and they need to close on their target? Now that wyches are great AT do they synergies less with raiders? Is Haywire worth it on larger squads?

5 x wyches, haywire
venom, cannon - 125

5 x wyches, haywire, heka, Vblade
venom, cannon - 140

5 x wyches, haywire, heka, Vblade, PGL
venom, cannon - 150

10 x wyches, haywire, heka, Vblade, PGL
Raider, Disintegrator - 205

10 x wyches, heka, Vblade, PGL
Raider, Lance - 185

Any ideas?




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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 09:12

5 wyches, haywire, heka, vblade, raider 135
This is how I run mine, and I´m happy with their performance Very Happy

Thy hunt both tanks and infantry, and with the ability to throw grenades, their shooting is decent too.
This unit does not assault anything threatening on their own, but they do so in packs with outer wyches/incubi/whatever I have.
I prefer to give my wyches a raider, the pivoting tricks are great when you need to place embark the ladies to nice positions.

Way only 5 in a raider? My usual enemies packs tons of anti-tank guns, and exploding one to three transports every round of the game. And nowadays an explosion cause s4 hit, they really hurt. There is no “to small” unit size. You can always run multiply of them and throw more of them to battle.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 10:22

So the heka/Vblade has been working for you? Good to hear I'm not the only one who thinks it's worth the points. Good reasoning about the transports blowing up and small squads over large squads.

From the games I have had I'm considering:

5 x wyches, haywire, heka, Vblade
venom - 130

As the venom is carrying wyches and gong to be closing fast, I don't think the cannon is really worth it as the venom will either be moving flat-out or quite close to the enemy, and won't last long. Two splinter cannons inflict 4 wounds. A splinter cannon and twin-linked splinter rifle inflict 2.44 wounds at over 12" and 2.89 wounds at 12" or under. Is dropping the cannon madness?


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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 10:38

The venomblade have worked well for me on everything. I used to roll a reduclius amount of 3 then rolling to wound with my agonizers, so a few months ago a replced them with venomblades. Even my archon just uses the venomblade.

Dropping the venom cannon? The thought haven’t crossed my mind before.
If you’re not going to shoot with the venom the first 2 game turns, then yes, drop the cannon. The venoms are going to be dead before the end of turn 4 anyway. (mine always are)
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 11:12

Yeah I love the Vblade, SShield, CDrugs Archon cheap and annoying. Considering GW dice have a 29% chance to roll ones instead of 16.6% the venom blade does a good job against 2+ saves.

The only thing that makes me consider larger squads is the phantasm grenade launcher. It's just so useful:

1) Used to increase screening cover save to 4+ when charging against over-watch.

2) Takes away a lot of the advantages enemies get by assaulting you. Firstly it denies the extra attack you get from charging. Secondly it gives you stealth when being shot at by units 8" or closer. If you are in cover this means there you could be getting a 4+ or 3+ save against a pistol volley, arguably the enemy could ensure they are 8.5 inches away, however this would decrease their chance of making the charge drastically.

3) If you are convinced an enemy is going to charge you after shooting, you might as well go to ground to get a 5+cover save in the open and a 3+ or 2+ in terrain. As going to ground doesn't prevent you from using over-watch, and most armies have offensive grenades so loosing the cover bonus to initiative makes no difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 11:15

venom blade=best 5 points you can spend. very very nice little upgrade for forcing a stack of wounds through.
i like the PGL too, i've been running squads of 15 out of wwp's and loving it, so the pgl is absolutely vital because i'm going to be standing in cover, very near the enemy shooting for a turn. that 4+ in cover is mighty helpful!
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 12:58

@Mushkilla wrote:

The only thing that makes me consider larger squads is the phantasm grenade launcher. It's just so useful:

I’m not sold on the pgl, I find it too expensive. The archon has to pay 25pts for his, and warriors sybarite too. Wyches got it right, at just 10pts.
The grenades the pgl provide is just assault grenades, not plasma, so whore for shooting then our regular plasma variant.

@Mushkilla wrote:

1) Used to increase screening cover save to 4+ when charging against over-watch.

This is useful, very useful indeed. There can be no arguing about that.

@Mushkilla wrote:

2) Takes away a lot of the advantages enemies get by assaulting you. Firstly it denies the extra attack you get from charging. Secondly it gives you stealth when being shot at by units 8" or closer. If you are in cover this means there you could be getting a 4+ or 3+ save against a pistol volley, arguably the enemy could ensure they are 8.5 inches away, however this would decrease their chance of making the charge drastically.

If my squads of 3-5 models are going to be charged by anything capable of fighting, they are surely going to die anyway. One additional coversave won’t save them.

@Mushkilla wrote:

3) If you are convinced an enemy is going to charge you after shooting, you might as well go to ground to get a 5+cover save in the open and a 3+ or 2+ in terrain. As going to ground doesn't prevent you from using over-watch, and most armies have offensive grenades so loosing the cover bonus to initiative makes no difference.

Sorry to burst you bubble here.

ROULBOK PAGE 62
“However, if the charged unit was already looked in combat, or has gone to ground, these grenades have no effect”
So going to ground and use defensive grenades is out of the question.
And if u going to ground prior to an enemy’s charge, he will not lose his imitative if they assault through cover.

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 13:07

Yeah it's way too expensive for anything other then wyches who get a nice deal out of it.

@Talos wrote:
[
ROULBOK PAGE 62
“However, if the charged unit was already looked in combat, or has gone to ground, these grenades have no effect”
So going to ground and use defensive grenades is out of the question.
And if u going to ground prior to an enemy’s charge, he will not lose his imitative if they assault through cover.

Nice catch, oh well. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 20:23

I'm not sure I like the Shardnet & Impaler any more. It used to be useful against three things mainly: dreadnoughts, characters with nasty weapons, and monstrous creatures, right?

Dreadnoughts now die before they can hit you anyway. Characters can get out of it with a challenge. That leaves MC's, many of whom fly. I'm not saying it's entirely useless, but I'm not sure it's worth the same points as a wych.

I've been telling people that my wyches with shardnets count as normal wyches. That's not wrong, do you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 22:05

@Barking Agatha wrote:

I've been telling people that my wyches with shardnets count as normal wyches. That's not wrong, do you think?

I do the same thing Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 22:07

I never used them only for that, they were just especially useful against said opponents. Also, a challenge just means only those two characters may be assigned wounds by one another, I believe Shardnets still work as long as they're still in base contact.

Shardnets are even better against enemy combat troops now, as with I6 we get to 'pile in' before just about everyone else, so we have 3" extra of free reign with getting as many into contact with the nets as possible, before the opponent does their pile-ins.

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 06:31

@Anggul wrote:
I never used them only for that, they were just especially useful against said opponents. Also, a challenge just means only those two characters may be assigned wounds by one another, I believe Shardnets still work as long as they're still in base contact.

If that's true, then it's lovely. 'I accept your challenge... girls, tie him up please.'

@Anggul wrote:
Shardnets are even better against enemy combat troops now, as with I6 we get to 'pile in' before just about everyone else, so we have 3" extra of free reign with getting as many into contact with the nets as possible, before the opponent does their pile-ins.

With 2 or 3 nets yeah, I see your point. Of course if the troops only had one attack anyway then it's wasted. I dunno. It isn't terrible, but do you really think it's worth 10 points?

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PostSubject: Re: Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs)   Small units of Bloodbrides (discussion has now moved to wych load outs) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 08:46


The might rulebook tell us on page 64
“For the duration of the challenge, those two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other”

So no, a wych with a shardnet would not help here. It would be cool if it worked, but no.
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