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 Flyers and Doom Cannons

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Evil Space Elves
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 23:02

I have been having a debate with my Necron friend about whether the Doom Cannon can hit flyers and ground units together or even hit flyers at all.
While the BRB states that anything without a BS roll cannot snap fire at a Flyer he says that the Codex mentions that the Doom Cannon hits "everything under the line" which will override the BRB and let it hit flyers.
Who is correct on this point.

Also is a line considered a template and therefor unable to hit Flyers at all?

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 23:09

is his model high enough above the table for the flyer to be UNDER the line?
anything without a BS value cant hit a flyer, so if it doesnt have a bs value, he cant hit the flyer.

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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 23:46

Its fired from another Flyer.
Does the codex entry about hitting anything under the line not over write the rule that says no BS attack can't hit Flyers?

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 23:57

I just checked the FAQ for 6th edition...nothing mentioned. Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 27 2012, 00:05

well then email GW.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 30 2012, 16:48

GW in the past has made line attacks (Blood Lance, JotWW) template attacks, but then again... now in 6th things changed again. I would just allow the Doom Scythe to hit other planes, as RAI I dont think that would make sense (I mean... just aim up Crons!!!) RAW though... its would be up to you all.

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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 30 2012, 21:51

So line attacks do count as templates?
So unless stated in the codex i.e. Doom Cannon and not FAQ'd they cannot hit Flyers.

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 14:18

according to the BRB Pg. 81, flyers must decide to use skyfire or not in the begining of the shooting phase.

If the necron player decides to use his weapon on ground units he doesn't have skyfire. This means that the weapon can't hit a flyer.

Even though his dex states that he hits anything underneath the line, he still has to follow the snap shot rule under pg. 13. The rule states any shooting attack that does not use a BS cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.

Now my argument is does skyfire ignore Snap Shot and you shoot as normal, or does it let you Snap Shot with full BS?

Depending on which answer will change the situation.

Argument 1: Skyfire ignores Snap Shot: he can use his Death Ray on your flyer and auto hit.
Argument 2: Skyfire lets you Snap Shot, but at Full BS: He still can't hit your flyer with his Death Ray because it doesnt use a BS.

This also applies to Blood Lance from the Blood Angels dex.

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 14:30

I said has, as in two updates ago. Currently it is not a template at all. All those attacks are weird shooting. So no, currently a doom scythe can shoot down another flyer with a doom gun.

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 14:33

Well under Snap Shot it specifically states "...ANY Shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill..."

So Snap Shot includes Templates, Blast, and the weird shooting that you mention. If it auto hits it never uses it's BS.

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 15:45

There are three problems with the death ray. I think you mean the death ray.

1. Are fliers under the line or not?
They are under the line. Imagine holding a string over the table and look down on it. If a unit is under the string it is hit. While it is technically possible to hold that string above infantry and below fliers, it just makes no sense to do so, because then it would be possible to not hit skimmers or jetbikes, too.

2. Can it be used with the skyfire special rule?
Yes, it can, because the Hard to Hit rule says that all units have to fire snap shots, unless they have the skyfire special rule, so if fired with skyfire it doesn't shoot snap shots, but normal ones, but the real problem lies elsewhere.

3. Can it hit a flyer at all.
While the snap shot rule states, that a shooting attack, that doesn't use BS, can't be fired as a snap shot, it is never clarified, that those attacks can't hit a flyer. The only things that can never hit fliers are template, blast and large blast attacks.
Because the death ray doesn't fire at a flier, but nominates a point on the battlefield and draws a line, it should be able to be fired anyway and subsequently hit a flyer.

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 16:04

Would you agree that Death Ray is a shooting attack?

Would you agree that Death Ray doesn't use BS?

Would you agree that Shots must be resolved as snap shots against a flyer?

Would you agree that a weapon that can't snap shot cannont be fired? (I.E. Portal of Exile is niether a blast or template, but the BRB uses it as an example.)

Would you agree that Death Ray isn't a blast or template, but because you can't Snap Shot it, it can't be fired?

Now to my point. Hard to Hit says "...Shots resolved....as Snap Shots..."

So if a Death Ray does manage to get a flyer under the line, it has to be resolved as Snap Shot before the rest of Death Rays effect takes place. Because Death Ray can't Snap Shot, the shot is never resolved, so Death Ray can't auto-hit then attempt to penetrate.

Also, if you state that Auto-Hit still hits no matter what, the Shot still has to be resolved as Snap Shot. So even if an Auto-Hit still hits it can't be resolved because it can't snap shot so it never penetrates.

I just can't find anything in the BRB that states otherwise.

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 16:13

My bet is that it will be FAQed that all line attacks will be treated as templates (like in previous editions and in fantasy). Templates can hit zooming flyers. The end. However until it gets FAQed it's all up in the air!

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 16:39

I just cant see how it's still "up in the air." (great Pun)

To me the rules are clear. I tried to find rules that favor the Auto-Hit shooting attacks but no where in the BRB supports it. The BRB only supports the argument that it can't be done at all. No one in this topic has shown rules stating you can hit flyers with auto-hit shooting attacks.

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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 22:10

Kayto the rule is in the Necron codex for the weapon where it states that any model under the line is hit.
If the codex takes priority then that rule over writes any snap fire rules or template rules until FAQ'd.

For other "Line" weapons there is no mention that autohits can or can't hit flyers without and FAQ revision to say if they count as templates. If they do then they can never hit flyers, if they don't then you have to pick flyers or ground units to hit as with any other attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Flyers and Doom Cannons   Flyers and Doom Cannons I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 22:54

So I just got off the phone with GW.

They told me that this issue with Death Ray and other Auto-Hit shooting attacks (Blood Lance) is under review to get a FAQ. The rep also stated that it will most likely be in the FAQ because it is one of their popular questions people call in for. They also gave me a ruling for the issue.

All shooting attacks must snap fire at a zooming flyer unless it has sky fire. Shooting attacks that auto-hit (Death Ray and Blood Lance) can't snap fire because it doesn't use BS. This only applies to shooting attacks.

The example the GW Rep gave.
If a Doom Scythe decides to use Skyfire in the shoot phase it CAN auto hit a flyer but ignores ground units under the line. If the Doom Scythe decided to shoot ground units are auto hit but it ignores flyers under the line.

I also asked about The Stormlords Lighting ability. GW stated that its not a shooting attack so it doesn't follow the shooting rules so it doesn't need to snap shot a zooming flyer.

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