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Mathial
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 02:14

@Roc wrote:
Any kind of weapon would be a little too much, and given them poison would ruin some of their effectiveness (they're made for taking out those T3 and T4 guys on a 2+/3+).

New Poison rules would benefit them in melee and not ruin any effectiveness afaik.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 07:11

@Mathial wrote:
@Roc wrote:
Any kind of weapon would be a little too much, and given them poison would ruin some of their effectiveness (they're made for taking out those T3 and T4 guys on a 2+/3+).

New Poison rules would benefit them in melee and not ruin any effectiveness afaik.

New poison rule?

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 08:58

@Mushkilla wrote:

New poison rule?

Poison always wound on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required.

Still, I don´t think that poison cc attacks is the key to fixing mandrakes. Just let them use bailblast form the go, without the heamonculu fix. Or make bailblast more attractive, like giving it ap3
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 09:33

Talos, that would affect marines. Do you serously think Ward will let that happen?! Sad

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 09:33

Talos, that would affect marines. Do you serously think Ward will let that happen?! Sad

pc lagg, please delete

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 09:39

@Talos wrote:
@Mushkilla wrote:

New poison rule?

Poison always wound on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required.

You also get to reroll wounds if your S is higher than the opponents T. I played a game with my friend's Tyranid army last week and gave them all toxin sacs for rerolls to wound Smile

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 09:43

@Enfernux wrote:
Talos, that would affect marines. Do you serously think Ward will let that happen?! Sad


No I don´t, it was just my imagination.
But if it happened, mandrakes would indeed have unique niche amongst our elites.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 10:06

@Talos wrote:
@Mushkilla wrote:

New poison rule?

Poison always wound on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required.

Nice, missed that makes flesh gauntlets an interesting option on aberrations.

@Count Adhemar wrote:

You also get to reroll wounds if your S is higher than the opponents T. I played a game with my friend's Tyranid army last week and gave them all toxin sacs for rerolls to wound Smile

That was already the case in 5th ed.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 10:11

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

You also get to reroll wounds if your S is higher than the opponents T. I played a game with my friend's Tyranid army last week and gave them all toxin sacs for rerolls to wound Smile

That was already the case in 5th ed.

Yeah but it didn't work too well with 'Nids as their high S usually meant that the poison rule made it harder to wound, albeit with a reroll. Now you can either use your S or the fixed poison roll, whichever is best, and still reroll wounds if S>T. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 10:15

That's pretty sweet, having an aberration with a flesh gauntlet, 6 attacks on the charge that re-roll to wound on a 2+ against T3, 3+ against T4 and 4+ against T5 and cause ID regardless of toughness. These guys has just become the monstrous creature slayer (well at least ones without eternal warrior). Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 10:21

@Mushkilla wrote:
That's pretty sweet, having an aberration with a flesh gauntlet, 6 attacks on the charge that re-roll to wound on a 2+ against T3, 3+ against T4 and 4+ against T5 and cause ID regardless of toughness. This guys has just become the monstrous creature slayer (well at least ones without eternal warrior). Smile

Throw in Urien for an extra pain token and +1S Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 14:18

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Talos wrote:
@Mushkilla wrote:

New poison rule?

Poison always wound on a fixed number, unless a lower result would be required.

You also get to reroll wounds if your S is higher than the opponents T. I played a game with my friend's Tyranid army last week and gave them all toxin sacs for rerolls to wound Smile

That's equal to or higher for the re-roll. I need to re-arrange some points and get a flesh guantlet on my aberration now.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:34

Quote :
Any kind of weapon would be a little too much, and given them poison would ruin some of their effectiveness (they're made for taking out those T3 and T4 guys on a 2+/3+).

I would love to see scout added on. That alone would seal their awesomeness as a go-to unit IMO (especially given their original deployment scheme), though I understand why they don't do that (PfP).

As far as a weapon, either rending or 2 CC weapons would be solid. If they could pump out 4 attacks on the charge, with a 2x assault weapon with an 18" range, they definitely would begin to fill their own niche. Overall, 2 CC weapons would be the natural way to go with them.
in what world do Mandrakes wound on 2+/3+ ? Oo
I'm mostly using darklight / poisonned weaponery but if I remember well, at equals strength/toughness it's 4+ and with +1S it's 3+ to wound, not 2+.

And poisonned weapon doesn't mean always 4+, plus if the Strength of the weapons is equals ( or higher, not sure ) to the Toughness, then you get to reroll the fail rolls to wound !
That'd be everything but ruin their effectiveness.

Being able to assault after deploying would be a great boost to Mandrakes and would fit perfectly to their background without being OP imho.
An assault 2 weapons would definitely be too much.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:45

Mandrakes are S4, if they have furious charge they are S5. So that's wounding T4 on a 3+ and T3 on a 2+.

The changes to poison means poison is still great on a high strength model as they get to wound on the same roll they normally would (eg: S5 wounding T3 on a 2+) and re-roll. So poison wouldn't be a bad thing for mandrakes.

To be honest I just wish they didn't strike last when charging through cover.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:50

so that's betting on 2 pain token .... yaaay =/
When considering an unit, it's with at most 1 paint token except for wracks.
Here, it should be from 0 pain token since they are meant to infiltrate.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 15:57

@Fruz wrote:
so that's betting on 2 pain token .... yaaay =/
When considering an unit, it's with at most 1 paint token except for wracks.
Here, it should be from 0 pain token since they are meant to infiltrate.


If you read this thread, you would have lean't that Roc likes to infiltrate his mandrakes and fly a haemonculus out to them ASAP. So by the end of the first game turn they have a pain token. This is one of the ways of maximising the effectiveness of drakes.

So to get a second token they only need to finish off one unit, which is pretty easy with their shooting attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 16:15

I know some people are trying to make them viable by using and homonculous but ... let's be serious :
What's the point cost of all of that ?
mandrakes +105 points without any upgrades on the homonculous/venom, and ridiculous constraint on the mandrake's deployement where infiltrating could allow much more ?

That's ridiculous, it's like not infiltrating them at all.

Plus I'm not sure that you can have a single homonculous with a dedicated transport which'd mean have a disembarked ( footslogging then ) unit to do that during first turn, but well, that's just be a detail, and I'm just not sure there.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 17:08

i agree, it seems like bending over backwards to make a crap unit passable.
the shooting is done better by other units and they are vastly outclassed in combat by several of their rivals.
i'd say these would work better in an all-foot list, supported by cronos's but tbh, i'd rather pay the points and take harlies. now with shrouded/stealth and ignore cover, they're fast, hit hard thanks to rending and get 2+ cover saves when in/behind something substantial.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 18:47

@Mushkilla wrote:
If you read this thread, you would have lean't that Roc likes to infiltrate his mandrakes and fly a haemonculus out to them ASAP. So by the end of the first game turn they have a pain token. This is one of the ways of maximising the effectiveness of drakes.

yes, and that is 1 pfp token, not 2. And we mostly compare to marines, so s4 v t4 is 4+, not 3, nor 2+. If you charge guard with them, well, 100 las shots will kill them, even on overwatch. a full strength platoon with s3 ap- shotguns will kill 7+ drakes. And dont think your opponent that retarded to leave a smell group of his men near your footsluging mandrakes. Heck i would only leave my bansheez with acrobatics, but i dont use them, so...you get me Very Happy

accordingly, 2 unites of firewarriors will kill the transport, if you take 3 and try to take the drakes in close with a raider.

i only count pfp in statistics for unites i give them to...that is 1 max, not 2!

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 03 2012, 22:58

Just to clarify something... the comment about wounding on a 2+ w/2 pain tokens was only concerning the "wish-listing" for the unit. In that regard, I was under the assumption that if GW did give them poison, they would drop their strength a point to balance it out. Now, if they were given poison flat-out, I'm not sure the 15 points would be reasonable.

Also, it is good to know that you mostly compare things against marines, and failing that, guard. I, for one, like to build a list that can take on anything, not just MEQ or GEQ, and as such, will take that into account in my calculations and planning. 100 las shots? 50 Guardsmen? That's about 17 hits, and slightly less than 4 dead on average. Sure, you might now have 5 Mandrakes against 50 guardsmen in CC, but making a charge like that, unsupported is a desperate move, and one that I think is highly unlikely in most game situations.

Further, like I've said before, Mandrakes are a key *support* unit. They're not going to go crazy killing everything in sight on their lonesome. But let me ask you this, would you rather charge 105 points of Mandrakes against that Guard squad, losing 3-4 (3.7) Mandrakes (45 - 60 points), or charge 100 points of Wyches, losing 7 (70 points)? This is where Mandrakes earn their keep, *in support*. 'Drakes charge first, opponent overwatches, then the one or two squads of wyches they are supporting get a free pass on the charge. Oh, and if the Mandrakes start from in cover? Even fewer losses!

Now, if you're talking about shooting in the regular shooting phase, the rapid fire on the guard is looking at a max effective range of 18", meaning they'll get one shot off against the charge-- and if the opponents are firing 100 shots at my 100 point squad? I'll take that any day.

And counting more than one PfP token is a legitimate way to consider a squads upside. Not something you ever depend upon, but a measure of potential. In games, it happens. When you're doing things properly, it happens often, and as such is something that should at least be taken into consideration-- even if not given a great deal of weight.

@Fruz wrote:
I know some people are trying to make them viable by using and homonculous but ... let's be serious :
What's the point cost of all of that ?
mandrakes +105 points without any upgrades on the homonculous/venom, and ridiculous constraint on the mandrake's deployement where infiltrating could allow much more ?

That's ridiculous, it's like not infiltrating them at all.

Plus I'm not sure that you can have a single homonculous with a dedicated transport which'd mean have a disembarked ( footslogging then ) unit to do that during first turn, but well, that's just be a detail, and I'm just not sure there.

@csjarrat wrote:
i agree, it seems like bending over backwards to make a crap unit passable.
the shooting is done better by other units and they are vastly outclassed in combat by several of their rivals.
i'd say these would work better in an all-foot list, supported by cronos's but tbh, i'd rather pay the points and take harlies. now with shrouded/stealth and ignore cover, they're fast, hit hard thanks to rending and get 2+ cover saves when in/behind something substantial.

I do enjoy hearing other takes other takes on the Mandrakes, to better understand why people don't like them. I believe it gives some insight into how non-DE players feel about them as well.

@Fruz, the cost of "all that" isn't much at all. @cs, nor is it bending over backwards for one unit. Just run through a couple of questions:

(1) Do you play DE?
(2) Do you run a Haemonculus in your force already?
(3) Do you use transports in your list?

You are not taking a Haemonculus just because of the Mandrakes. You are not taking a transport just to be a delivery mechanism. The fact of the matter is that most DE players use transports, and many run a Haemonculus as an HQ in order to grant a pain token to stg or to get wracks as troops. You do not do this because it is good for Mandrakes, you take these things because it is good for your army.

Now, that being said, you could give the pain token elsewhere, but nowhere else will it help as much as with the Mandrakes. Additionally, a 'monc in a transport only needs to exit a transport w/in 8" of the Mandrakes to gift the token, and you're telling me there will not be a unit that can carry a haemonculus within 14" (counting a transport or scout move) of a forward position in your army? If that is really the case (in an all reaver list, for example) Mandrakes are not for you. But for most builds "all this" is something you are already taking, and this is just another way for the units in your army to work together-- something DE commanders have to be pretty good at in the first place.

So the cost? Somewhere between 105 and 145 points (the cost of your chosen Mandrake squad), and some thought in the deployment and movement phase.

And as for not infiltrating them at all? In order to get that first pain token to them, you will need to deploy them within 14" of your starting line. That's up to two inches past midfield. Personally, I rarely infilitrate anything further past that line, especially given the 12-18" they have to be away from an opponent. Yes, that stops you from plugging a 1st turn pain token into a Mandrake unit that deploys deep in your opponents' DZone because he turtled in a corner. In that case (which has come up rarely in my experience) you have a decision to make: infiltrate and try to pick up the pain token on their own-- flat out a raider to start surrounding the opponent-- or deploy elsewhere. It is a tactical decision that you will have to make, but I have never felt "limited" in using infiltrate by this tactic.

Concerning the fact that there are specialized shooters in the army? Yes, yes there are. Specialized CC troops? Yes, we got those too. A unit that can routinely fill in for both, or give that extra support to either CC or shooting on a consistent and effective regular basis? We have a couple. Mandrakes are one of them, and offer more versatility than the others. Further, I have yet to see them be vastly outclassed by another choice. Outclassed, but not vastly (with the exception of hunting monstrous creatures).

In summation, Mandrakes are a useful, versatile, support unit. They are a unit adept at reacting to your opponent (whereas almost every other DE unit is a proactive one). They synergize well with many lists (but not all. For example, you're not taking transports, or haemonculi, or everything is to be in your opponents deployment zone turn 1, this is not the unit for you). Also, they can really catch an opponent off-guard, whether because he has not seen them before, or because he discounts them in his battle plan.

What would I like for them to have? rending or an extra CCW. Poison would be amazing, but I just don't see it happening.


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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 03 2012, 23:13

Ignore this post, web browser went a little haywire and double posted.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 03 2012, 23:19

Do you not find assaulting through cover and being reduced to I1 a pain with mandrakes?

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 03 2012, 23:32

@Mushkilla wrote:
Do you not find assaulting through cover and being reduced to I1 a pain with mandrakes?

An annoyance if anything. Sometimes the best answer is not to charge, and move around area terrain in an attempt to force a failed charge. Other times, I move out of the cover in the movement phase, and therefore don't suffer the penalty in the assault phase (move through cover is good for that). And rarely do I run an unsupported unit into CC against an entrenched enemy, and the Mandrakes are usually paired with Wyches, Incubi, or a Talos/Chronos.

If my goal is to do as much damage as possible, I'll charge in with the Wyches or Talos first, thus receiving no penalty when the Mandrakes get in. If the goal is to protect my Wyches from overwatch, Mandrakes go first and as soon as they're in, they've done their job and any resulting kills are gravy. Also, Mandrakes rarely go head to head with your opponents elite assault troops (you're supposed to shoot those things anyway), so you may strike last, but you're rarely running at something that can drop you that hard before you strike.

Often times their goal is to tie-up devastators, protect wyches from overwatch, elongate an existing combat, etc. etc. (all things that can be achieved without actually striking anyway). Again, these are not stand alone units, and in general have no place solo-charging entrenched enemy CC units (that's why their shooting is so useful). So yes, lack of grenades is a little sad, but rarely causes major problems.


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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 04 2012, 01:46

you're quite a funny guy though.

@roc wrote:
Just to clarify something... the comment about wounding on a 2+ w/2 pain tokens was only concerning the "wish-listing" for the unit. In that regard, I was under the assumption that if GW did give them poison, they would drop their strength a point to balance it out. Now, if they were given poison flat-out, I'm not sure the 15 points would be reasonable.
actually, you just said "(they're made for taking out those T3 and T4 guys on a 2+/3+)."
which is obviously not the case, and has never been.
and poison is never 2+ unless you have a Lhammaen or a venom blades ( not rly considering scliscus as I don't play with special chars with my friends ).


So you're gonna have one footslogging unit ( otherwise you can't take a transport for your haemy ) + 1 easy VP without FnP ( happens in many situation usually, but not on first turn outside of a vehicle .... ) so that you can try to make mandrake good w00t.

When you take a haemy to go with wracks, then he's gonna be in CC or flamming everything he cans while the wracks are hitting as hard as they can, which means he's already at range and has the transport or the CC protection, which yours doesn't have.

PS : you can use 2 squads of wyches so that they protect eachother from overwatches.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 04 2012, 07:15

@Fruz wrote:
you're quite a funny guy though.

Thanks, I try.

I work on patience as well. Very Happy

@Fruz wrote:
@roc wrote:
Just to clarify something... the comment about wounding on a 2+ w/2 pain tokens was only concerning the "wish-listing" for the unit. In that regard, I was under the assumption that if GW did give them poison, they would drop their strength a point to balance it out. Now, if they were given poison flat-out, I'm not sure the 15 points would be reasonable.
actually, you just said "(they're made for taking out those T3 and T4 guys on a 2+/3+)."

Which is the purpose in clarifying something. To add additional information to explain a previously expressed statement. Actually, the clarification was a response to the comment about the change in the poison rule not removing any of their effectiveness. But since you mention it...

@Fruz wrote:
which is obviously not the case, and has never been.
and poison is never 2+ unless you have a Lhammaen or a venom blades ( not rly considering scliscus as I don't play with special chars with my friends ).

I think you might be mixing some arguments here. I was never contesting that poison gave them a 2+ to wound. I was saying that one of the upsides with Mandrakes as they are (at S.4) is that they wound a number of opponents on a 2+ or 3+ with two pain tokens (T4 would be wounded on 3+ and T3 wounded on 2+), and I would anticipate that they would lose that S capability, in balance, should the games designers give them poison. Now yes, they do not always have two pain tokens, but speaking from significant experience with Mandrakes, this happens. Often. Consistently. Regularly. Should you disagree or disbelieve, I'll leave that to you.

@Fruz wrote:
So you're gonna have one footslogging unit ( otherwise you can't take a transport for your haemy ) + 1 easy VP without FnP ( happens in many situation usually, but not on first turn outside of a vehicle .... ) so that you can try to make mandrake good w00t.

When you take a haemy to go with wracks, then he's gonna be in CC or flamming everything he cans while the wracks are hitting as hard as they can, which means he's already at range and has the transport or the CC protection, which yours doesn't have.

Honestly, you have lost me on this one. Haemonculus is an IC. He attaches to a squad. He disembarks and joins Mandrakes, the squad does not. It's really a very simple and basic exercise that for most people does not require a change of tactics or army list. If you do not run an army in which a 'Monc can be disembarked and attached to a unit in Turn 1, then Mandrakes are probably not a unit you're looking at.

@Fruz wrote:
PS : you can use 2 squads of wyches so that they protect eachother from overwatches.


Sure, if you want one of them to die. As you will note in my math in the above discussion, the early pain token given to mandrakes, combined with the 5++, and their stealth, make them significantly more resilient to overwatch then wyches. Charge 2x9 man squads of wyches into the 50 guardsmen squad mentioned above, and you will have one 9 man squad of wyches in close combat, losing roughly 108+ points (probably over 120 with the existence of a Hekatrix). Charge 9 wyches and 9 Mandrakes, you end up with 9 wyches and about 5-6 Mandrakes in combat, losing roughly 45-60 points. So yes, you *could* use 2 squads of wyches to cover each other, it's just not as good of an idea. pirat
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