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 Mandrakes!!

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Fruz
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TwistedSoul
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PostSubject: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 01:29

So looking at peoples lists you really don't see many with Mandrakes, are they just no good in 6th? what is every1's opinion and/or experience with fielding mandrakes?
I like 2 play fast in your face lists and to infiltrate a few madrakes in ur opponents face while he has RJB squads and fast skimmer's rushing him sounds like a good thing to me....but then again i haven't play tested them.
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Mathial
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 03:04

A lot of little things adding up to make them not really worth it.

No grenades for assaulting things in cover.
Need a pain token to even get their shooting attack.
Nightfiend has no options and just gives a LD boost and an additional attack [No access to power weapons]
Are an Elite Choice which makes them have to compete with other units that could potentially help you better.
Are considered Daemons for the purposes of Grey Knights, but don't have access to the Daemon Special rule.
Their special character [Decapitator] can't even join them because he's not an Independent Character, which if he was able to just do that one thing they could probably do a lot better off.

I'm not saying to give them a try but thats mostly what is going to be responded back here on the subject of Mandrakes. They have an ok amount of attacks each and have a decent amount of strength. They still suffer from our low T value though. They can theoretically be a pain in the rear to some people but it seems to be fairly situational and up to what kind of gaming group you have going on. I regularly play against Grey Knights myself [My roommate's army], and as much as I adore the Drakes, they just become moot against "Ha! We have preferred enemy against you for no raisins"
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 03:10

Thnx for the reply Mathiel, I guess it would be better off for me 2 grab some incubi n throw them in a venom. which was my second choice anywho....however i think i'll still pick up some mandrakes down the road for fun games.
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Mathial
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 03:20

I own a lot of Mandrakes myself. I just love the new models and they tend to fill proxy roles for things i Tend to not have.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 08:32

doesnt move through cover make them not lose I when charging in to terrain??
anyway, a little math comparison, since you will run incu.
9 incu 1 klaivex, demiklaves clasped 255pts
9 mandrakes 1 nightfiend 160pts
incu vs MEQ 31 attacks, 20.6hits, 10.7 dead marines, 0.042 kill per mópoint
mandrakes vs meq 31 attacks, 15.5 hit, 7.75 wound, 2.58dead marines, 0.016 kill per point

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 09:18

Move through cover just lets them ignore dangerous terrain tests and move through terrain faster.

I noticed in the new rules that while Mandrakes can't infiltrate with a non-infiltrating chracter attached, they can outflank with a character. I suppose that might be useful for something.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 09:19

@TwistedSoul wrote:
So looking at peoples lists you really don't see many with Mandrakes, are they just no good in 6th?

No, although to be fair they were no good in 5th either. They are an elite assault unit that most codex's basic troops have no need to be scared of. 3 attacks at WS4, S4 is simply nothing to write home about. Poison, rending, power weapons, ignores armour - any of these would have helped to make them useful but sadly, nothing.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 09:20

Nomic, this has been already discussed, outflanking is due to infiltrator SR, so in order to outflanks, the mandrakes have to have the infiltrator SR, what the IC does not have, so he cant outflank for he doesnt have the infiltrator SR.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 12:53

@Enfernux wrote:
Nomic, this has been already discussed, outflanking is due to infiltrator SR, so in order to outflanks, the mandrakes have to have the infiltrator SR, what the IC does not have, so he cant outflank for he doesnt have the infiltrator SR.
Anyone thought of Outflanking into the enemy's deployment zone for Linebreaker? I know that cover was nerfed back to 3rd edition levels, but it seems to follow that they'd be fairly hard to get out of an enemy's deployment zone if they could hide behind a burned-out tank or something. Or get inside a building.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 21:04

@teh603 wrote:
@Enfernux wrote:
Nomic, this has been already discussed, outflanking is due to infiltrator SR, so in order to outflanks, the mandrakes have to have the infiltrator SR, what the IC does not have, so he cant outflank for he doesnt have the infiltrator SR.
Anyone thought of Outflanking into the enemy's deployment zone for Linebreaker? I know that cover was nerfed back to 3rd edition levels, but it seems to follow that they'd be fairly hard to get out of an enemy's deployment zone if they could hide behind a burned-out tank or something. Or get inside a building.

That could work, though youd have to have a good luck to arrive at an appropiate place and then move behind cover. Im extremely sure that they would be gunned down and if not, then they would lose their combat effectiveness. I have seen a unit of Dark Reapers beating Mandrakes in a charge (at the Reapers) and the outcome was Mandrakes 1/3 Reapers. Its luck, but Mandys are incredibly squishy. Such a shame, since the miniatures are really sweet.

Oh, and I hardly believe that Mandrakes could hold out even in cover, since getting into buildings would be quite hard.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 21:23

@teh603 wrote:
Anyone thought of Outflanking into the enemy's deployment zone for Linebreaker? I know that cover was nerfed back to 3rd edition levels, but it seems to follow that they'd be fairly hard to get out of an enemy's deployment zone if they could hide behind a burned-out tank or something. Or get inside a building.

It's a nice idea, but there are easier ways for us to get Linebreaker points. Reavers, specifically. They can get into the opposing deployment zone turn one on a standard 4'x6' table, then just stay there turbo boosting and blade vaning stuff until the end of the game. Even with no cover, they can move fast enough to weather an absolute storm of shooting, as well as wrecking high value targets then scooching back into cover. They can't be charged by stuff arriving from reserve anymore, which used to be a drawback for something that you could easily get carried away with the sheer speed of. Moving something 36" just because it can isn't always a brilliant idea...

Even with outflanking stuff you have to get lucky, like Sara'khil said. And that'd be all you'd be using them for, as they can't hold their own in a fight. They'd only be good in a game where a single victory point mattered, and, for the most part, we don't have close games! There's so much fast stuff we have that relying on something to sneak on in the right spot, whilst not a bad idea, just isn't that essential.

For super speedy Dark Eldar, Linebreaker points aren't a possibility. They're an inevitability.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 22:35

@Enfernux wrote:
Nomic, this has been already discussed, outflanking is due to infiltrator SR, so in order to outflanks, the mandrakes have to have the infiltrator SR, what the IC does not have, so he cant outflank for he doesnt have the infiltrator SR.

The rule merely states that if a character without infiltrate joins an unit with inflitrate, he can't infiltrate with them (ie. be deployed withing 12/18'' inches of an enemy after all units have been deployed). Nowhere does it state that he can't outflank with them 8and outflank is one of those USRs where if one model in the unit has it, all of them get it).

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 22:57

Mandreks?
My advice, the pts are better spent elsewhere. They were rubbish in the old codex, the where rubbish in in 5th, and they have not become stronger in 6th. There is nothing they can do that another unit can’t do better
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 23:00

I agree with Talos, but would like to add the fact that I don't use them because I simply do not like the models. If they had different poses and had something other than skin trousers then I would consider buying some, but they all look the same.
If they were cheaper then I would use them to draw fire while units that are actually threatening zoom up, but at their price I'm not willing to.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 00:00

I had some luck with them once in a WWP list along with a Cronos - luckily they both arrived together and the Cronos was able to dish out a token first thing. They then charged a marine combat squad of 5 for another token and then used them for the rest of the game bale blasting AV10 vehicles and charging at Str 5.

Of course, that was 1 game out of 3 that they were even useful - the other outings they were having a bad day.

When I think of Mandrakes I think of the "leaked 6th edition" rules, there they had a rule that any unsaved wound from a pinning weapon can stack their leadership modifier. For example, if the Mandrakes killed 3 marines with bale blast there would be a -3 modifier to their leadership. This was going to be the fix they needed since you do not need grenades if your opponent is pinned.

But noooooo, they left that part out - grrr!


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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 02:12

Wow, that really is a lot of Mandrake hate. I really feel the need to step in here and defend the poor guys. I, for one, am a great fan of mandrakes and truly think they are one of the most underrated units in the Dark Eldar army list.

With that in mind, please bear with what I am sure is going to be an overly-long reply (I do seem to lean towards those on this board).

To be honest I wish I had some more time to go into greater detail. Mandrakes are a difficult unit to use, but a great utility-knife. They have some effective AI fire, they have some solid CC ability against a number of units (they need that second pain token though), they work wonders for area denial, flank denial, speed bumps, or that last extra push into combat, as well as for playing games with your opponents deployment if you go first, and they can be a major pain to dislodge from terrain near the end of the game (Especially if you can find them 4+ cover and let them go-to ground-- a 2+ cover save allows them to hold out against a lot of firepower).

What I really like about them is their consistency and versatility. Rarely are they non-factors in my games, and even if they are fulfilling different roles from match-to-match, they almost always fulfill their allotted assignment for me.

They have a variety of uses, and are really not a stand alone unit. I play an army that hits an opponent in waves, instead of all at once, and mandrakes are that extra push that have the speed (fleet and move through cover, in addition to infiltrate) to be where I need them, when I need them.

One of the tricks to their use is managing the expense (I rarely let them go over 135, or even 105 in many games), and being sure you have an army that works with them. Truly, you will need at least one chronos, or one dedicated haemonculus for the army. Personally, I usually have a monc with a hexrifle in a raider that is ferried to the drakes and deployed with them after the T1 movement phase. This especially works coming out of a raider or venom with something shooty.

I used to see a LOT of marines at times (then they dried up completely), but my turn normally went something like this: deploy 'drakes in cover within shooting distance of a 10-man tac squad, or something vulnerable. Move the 'monc into the unit for the first pain token, and fire with the venom that dropped the haemonculus (often a unit of 4 incubi), and one other unit (warriors often).

The mandrakes would fire last and either finish off the unit, or leave them vulnerable to be charged later (or that turn if opponent went first). Either way, they're often ending up with their second pain token come the end of opponents turn 2, and you have the ability to do some serious damage to vehicles, or slink back into cover and hunker down for area denial, etc.

Often, they would team up with the Incubi, grotesques, or wyches on a T5 charge (whichever unit they were operating nearby with at that point), and be those extra attacks that pushes the assault over to where you need it. (My talos often did the same thing on the other flank of the board). Often times you're looking at a good 15 ws 4 s. 5 attacks at that point, enough to fell a couple of MEQs or a handful of weaker opponents.

Additionally, remember in CC they have a 5++, which, coupled with FNP gives them a save against ~56% of their wounds (as long as its not against ID weapons). I know this sounds like a lot of theory-hammering and a lot of 'what-ifs', but it's something I've been able to do reliably for almost a decade against all sorts of marine opponents (slightly different tactics pre-current codex, but the gist was the same).

Again, they are not a beginner's unit really, and if you want to get the benefit, you'll probably have to stick to using them in order to figure them out. And you will probably fail a number of times before you start getting the hang of it.

But once you do, they become an amazingly versatile force that can adapt to the changing needs of the table-top and are one of my favorite tools in the entire force.

And yes, that was the short-- I-don't-have-enough-time-to-give-a-full-reply version.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 09:07

@Nomic wrote:
The rule merely states that if a character without infiltrate joins an unit with inflitrate, he can't infiltrate with them (ie. be deployed withing 12/18'' inches of an enemy after all units have been deployed). Nowhere does it state that he can't outflank with them 8and outflank is one of those USRs where if one model in the unit has it, all of them get it).

how should i say this...i'll try to be as plain as i can XD
so...having the inf USR, you can USE the outflank USR, so if a unite has infiltrator, they CAN outflank, USING the outflank, USR, but if they HAD it in ther special rules section they would confer it. But they DONT, meaning, they dont have the outflank USR, so they cant confer it to an IC.

If this would realy be an option, i would have started using 3 scorp squads, 1 with autarch - arriving for 2+ from reserves? Yes please - and i would have a hell of a massacre at my hands with CWE.

Edit: @ Roc my major problem with them is points effectiveness. i wont go in to mathhammering it, but a 5 man incu squad, one is a klaivex going from a venom is more points effective, than say 10 drakes.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 10:52

If you didn't need a pain token to have their shooting atk I would be fine with them. Decapitator just sucks; no way of sugar coating that one lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 19:22

@Enfernux wrote:
how should i say this...i'll try to be as plain as i can XD
so...having the inf USR, you can USE the outflank USR, so if a unite has infiltrator, they CAN outflank, USING the outflank, USR, but if they HAD it in ther special rules section they would confer it. But they DONT, meaning, they dont have the outflank USR, so they cant confer it to an IC.

Actually, this is a very interesting question in my opinion. Infiltrate does not allow a unit to use Outflank, it confers the Outflank USR straight out. The squad can then use Outflank separately from infiltrate (otherwise harlequins could not confer H&R to an IC-- because they are conferred H&R from another special rule). If that were the end of it, RAW, a character could outflank with a squad. However, there is that line that states an IC cannot join infiltrators at deployment. The question becomes "what is the definition of 'infiltrators'?". If it means 'any unit with the infiltrate USR', then no IC can join them at deployment-- ever-- even if they're being deployed normally.

If 'infiltrators' means a unit exercising the infiltrate deployment ability, then an IC could join them at the beginning of the game if they are placed in reserve or if they are deployed normally. I lean towards the latter interpretation.

Quote :
Edit: @ Roc my major problem with them is points effectiveness. i wont go in to mathhammering it, but a 5 man incu squad, one is a klaivex going from a venom is more points effective, than say 10 drakes.

Yes, the incubi might be able to dish out more damage for the points than the mandrakes. But as has been discussed in the 40kisms thread, damage output v. cost is not the only worthwhile measure of a unit. I would posit that Mandrakes are better at holding on at the end of the game, suppressing infantry at range, tying down PW squads, and they have greater deployment flexibility-- infiltrate, outflank, jump into a transport on the first turn, etc. That is one of the reasons I thoroughly enjoy the 'drakes. Flexibility, versatility, hole-plugging, whatever you want to call it, they have it. Even if other units can do any given task better, the only things Mandrakes can't do is take out heavy armor, or provide long-range fire support.

@callofdoobie wrote:
If you didn't need a pain token to have their shooting atk I would be fine with them.

As I mentioned, they fit well in armies where PT distribution isn't an issue. If it is an issue, then they're probably not a good fit for that army.

Quote :
Decapitator just sucks; no way of sugar coating that one lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 23:55

@Nomic/Enfernux. The Infiltrate special rule states that an IC cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment. The outflank special rule states that a unit with outflank can opt to do so during deployment. So by that token, an IC must only join a unit of infiltrators after deployment, by which time they have already declared they are outflanking at which point it's too late to join the IC to them.

Edit: This is based on the fact that in the unit entry their special rules do not include outflank. This USR is granted because of the infiltrator rule and therefore by declaring their intention to outflank, they become 'a unit of infiltrators' for the purpose of joining an IC to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 00:28

Even if we culd outflak them with a homunculi, then what? A squad of 10 drakes and a paintoken babysitter is close to 200pts. There shooting isn’t even that impressive, it like 10 strombolters with a range of 18. They take an elite slot. As a dark elder archon I expect my elite to bring some serious pain to the enemies.
And as for linebreaking, well half my army is usually there and cause pain and misery. And for denial, I use revers, the fastest unit in the army list.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 01:02

I'm with Roc on this one, mandrakes are tricky to use but have been the MVPs in the 2 games of 6th I've now played (yeah yeah, I know its not a lot! Razz). As has been mentioned - their ability to wither significant amounts of enemy firepower as well as to deal out a substantial amount too (pain token required) means that they are a great distraction unit and one annoying unit that won't go away without a LOT of focused firepower: which means the rest of your force is having an easy time.

Exactly like Roc, I take mine in units of 8 or 9 maximum and sit then 12" outside my deployment zone, then a raider with a haemie (and often a shooty squad such as warriors) will move up 6" and disembark. The Warriors then split and walk one way (into cover) whilst the Haemie (and his lovely hexrifle) skips on over to the Mandrakes. My list is WWP based and so in the shooting phase the Mandrakes shoot up whatever enemy unit is nearby (they finished up a unit of Dark Reapers in tonight's game which game me the first blood VP as well as that lovely 2nd pain token) and then gradually worked their way forwards - guarding the WWP and providing a central threat bubble that saw them contribute to the enemy avatar dying, enemy jetbikes etc. This forced my opponent to try to come down the flanks - with the 2nd WWP being set up on one flank and a double reaver + scourge reinforcement on the other. The mandrakes then legged it forwards once the centre was established and claimed the Linebreaker points too.

Given another turn or 2 I'd have gone on to assault and savage up the enemy Guardian and Farseer bunker fortification and claimed that third extra VP...

I don't think I could explain any more than Roc did in regards to tactical use in game and the value of these dark monsters, but I hope that my small 'case study' helped to sway a few people to try this combo again. In my first game of 6th, the Mandrakes took some serious punishment from Tau and should have walked to an easy victory on the central objective (like Roc says - Going To Ground on the last few turns for that 2+ cover save wouldda netted me the win, as it was I held a draw with a solo wych lying down on the ground...)

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 06:43

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Edit: This is based on the fact that in the unit entry their special rules do not include outflank. This USR is granted because of the infiltrator rule and therefore by declaring their intention to outflank, they become 'a unit of infiltrators' for the purpose of joining an IC to them.

Very much this. Looking at the Special rule, it states that any infiltrator placed in reserve gets the outflank special rule. The rule later states that no ICs can join infiltrators during deployment. As such, the IC would not be able to join them.

However, it should be noted that in the eternal war section of the BRB, it does state that the player has the option whether or not to utilize the infiltrate special rule. As such, one could choose to deploy a squad with infiltrate normally and attach an IC to them.

As far as the use of outflank for Mandrakes? Well, I could see some scenarios where it might work and the flexibility to have the choice is nice (hammer and anvil deployment for example). But in most games, I do not see a great benefit to that type of deployment-- especially sans the acute senses special rule.

@dangerous, I'm glad to hear someone else has been finding success with them. Like I said, there may be other units that can perform some of those tasks better, but you won't find a unit that can fulfill all of those tasks competently. I have actually taken to fielding them in units of 7 w/a nightfiend at this point, and have found that to be pretty effective, though I really do feel more comfortable around that 9-man 135 point range. Please keep us up to date on their exploits and any tips/queries you have on using them-- especially coming from someone not used to them, it's very interesting to get that perspective.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 10:05

mandrakes 15 pts, 5up invul, scorpions 16 pts 3up armor. Nightfiend 10 pts, nothing special, Exarch 12 pts, higher ws, bs, i, biting blate 5 pts.
Situation A) Mandrakes charge scorps in cover. Not counting Scorp overwatch Razz
Mandrakes hit last, boohoo. So Scorps dish out 9*3 attacks, the exarch does only 4 - biting blade being two handed, but hey, mandiblasters Smile
So Scorps kill 6 drakes, Exarch kills 1.48, what, 2-3 drakes hit back? Lets count 3, so 0.33 scorps die.
Situatuon B) Scorps charge drakes in cover - scorps have plasma grenades, pistols, so first a grenade and the shooting. Lets say blast gets 2 drakes, 0.88, pistols 2.37, then charge, 9*4 attacks, plus 5 from the exarch. Exarch hits first, then the rest is resolved at the same time, remember, we are now short of 3 drakes. Exarch chalanges the Nightfiend, exarch deals 1.85 unsaved...nf dies.
The rest is 6*2 attacks vs 9*4, drakes doing 1.33 unsaved, scorps doing 8 unsaved, wiping out the drakes.

"Scorps are still way much pricey compared to drakes" Yes, they are a 4th ed book, way in the need of geting a makeover.

Sorps can get infiltrate, move through cover.
A 4th ed dex can deal with it...or should i point out that our 4th ed drakes were better - decoy Razz Very Happy

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Join date : 2012-07-16
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes!!   Mandrakes!! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 26 2012, 10:20

I tire of your dull and irrational comparisons Enfernux. They are not even remotely entertaining. In what vacuum of tedium eternity do these events take place? Mandrakes excel at jumping of buildings, scorpions do not! That in and of itself is enough to make them a vastly superior choice.

I'm with Roc on this one, the whole is often greater then the sum of it's parts.

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