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 Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 09:13

So now that we can move and shoot from our gunboats, I've been toying with splinter racks. I like many have always assumed they are twinlinked; that is to say reroll your misses. However in reading the description of both the twin linked USR and splinter racks, it would seem they are not.

Twin linked says you must reroll your misses, and you dont get extra shots just a better chance of hitting with them, whereas splinter racks quote "..models with splinter rifles or splinter pistols that fire when embarked on the vehicle may re-roll their to hit rolls to represent the boundless ammunition available to them." Nowhere does it say twinlinked, and I cannot find clarification in any FAQ. Would make sense then why its only rifles & pistols, as cannons and carbines already fire faster (and cost more).

So, If 10 Kabalites fire at a range of 13-24" from a rack-equipped raider (10 dice) and 3 hit, do they reroll the misses (7 dice) or do they get to roll all 10 again? As I read the description in our codex, they roll all 10 again.

Any thoughts?

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 09:48

good question.
but i think tournament events made the fails re-roll.
reading it word for word, it doesnt say say the fail to hits, only the to hits, on the other hand, it doesnt say you have to reroll all
1)it says MODELS, not squads, and if you only reroll the to hits for the model, you dont have to do that for other models, for it is a MAY.
2)you roll for the 10, 6 hit, 4 miss, so you nominate what models missed, and reroll their to hit rolls...this time, all of 'em, so if one hit once in rapid fire, missed a nother, decide: is it worth it to reroll? maybe both hit, maybe none.

this does changes a few things, but not all...well at least the way i see it Very Happy *noms on sammich

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 10:41

Enfernux, you are eternally eating... XD

But in this instance you hit the nail on the head. Splinter racks do not make your weapons twin-linked, since you are required to reroll twin linked shots if you miss. This comes in handy if you're trying to weaken a squad for assault and you don't to hurt them too much, as you can choose whether or not to reroll their rolls (it does indeed say to hit, and not failed to hit, theres nothing in the FAQ about it, so it might just be a house rule at your LGS enfernux...). Pretty handy actually...

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 10:46

ruke, it says a model, not all models Smile one and all is a completely different value, thoug a model is every model you like that has access to this advantage.
10 models shoot, 20 shots rapid, 15 hit, so you say 2 models missed entirely, 1 hit once, failed once, so you reroll both for the two and decide if you want to reroll for the 50% successor Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 10:48

yeah, but say you only wanted 10 hits, you can reroll the shots for 4 or 5 more models and hope you fail more to put you at that 10 hit limit...

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 10:50

that is also true...luckaly i usually can place my assault tropes to be able to charge different targets, so if i obliterate a squad to much that it has gotten to far away, i can alwayse chose a ntoher target - will lose more, but my main killing machines are my 17 incu Very Happy have 20 for they look good.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 20:02

Thanks guys, so no 40 shots from a rapid firing gunboat crew then? (20 then 20 again?) Very Happy

Seems a rare tactical advantage to negate misses for a reroll in hopes of lasting until your opponents assault phase, but then again I didn't write the rule. And if you have to account for which models missed and choose to reroll or not it could lead to some opponents making you roll each models to hit rolls seperately (yikes). What makes more sense to me is that it's just twinlinked with a different name Sad

Still cant help but read it as reroll all your dice and add together the results; as it is limited to specifically the two weakest if you will weapon types we have. After all in this era of stacking hammerhand strength it wouldnt be too out of line....

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 29 2012, 14:14

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Thanks guys, so no 40 shots from a rapid firing gunboat crew then? (20 then 20 again?) Very Happy
[...]
Still cant help but read it as reroll all your dice and add together the results; as it is limited to specifically the two weakest if you will weapon types we have. After all in this era of stacking hammerhand strength it wouldnt be too out of line....

I don't see where you get the idea that you can add the two sets of results together. If that was the case, surely it would just say something like 'fire twice as many shots as usual'.

The way I read it is that you can re-roll as many or as few dice as you like. Ordinarily, if you roll ten and score six hits, then you'd want to re-roll the four misses (only). But of course it may happen that for some reason you'd want to re-roll hits and the RAW allow that even though it is odd.

It's less clear what to do if one model shoots twice and scores one hit - i.e. it's not clear whether he has to re-roll both or neither - but I'd say he can re-roll the miss while keeping the hit, since the re-roll is optional (something he MAY do).
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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 30 2012, 15:17

@Ben_S wrote:
I don't see where you get the idea that you can add the two sets of results together. If that was the case, surely it would just say something like 'fire twice as many shots as usual'...

GW has forever given us ambiguous wordings; in this case the first way it read to me was that you reroll your to-hit rolls; that is to say, the act of rolling the dice regardless of whether or not they were hits or misses. Then my evil brain gets in the way and says "if you already rolled and hit 12 times, then those should stand, and you roll to hit again, as you cannot change the immutable laws of time and space, what has happened cannot unhappen." Then my logical brain kicks in and says " well that seems kinda broken, and a little OP for 10 points a raider" They argue for ten minutes, then my hungry brain gets bored and I go make a sandwich, and then post it here to see what my fellow archons think.

Wishful thinking maybe? Attempt at balancing the odds versus other "rulebreaking" rulings in other codexes? Strange, rarely beneficial tactical advantage? Or in a need to fill wordcount in the codex a lengthy explanation of twinlinked? Not sure where I stand on it, but barring a new FAQ twinlinked will have to suffice.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 30 2012, 18:09

It's true that GW's rules are often less clear than they could be, but no one can prevent any willful misinterpretation because they can't define every word they use (without using other words, which you could then ask what those mean). I think it's clear enough that a re-roll is a replacement of the original roll, rather than an additional roll.

As for 'is this twin-linked' I thought we agreed the answer was no. RAW, twin-linked requires you to re-roll misses, whereas splinter racks allows you to re-roll either hits or misses if you wish (not that this will ordinarily be any different).
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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 30 2012, 22:37

Well there's a couple of points to my mind.
1. A re-roll means re-rolling the dice to obtain a different result, not an additional result.
2. A splinter rack is by definition not twin linked, every twin linked weapon in the game is quite literally two guns strapped together to fire as one. A splinter rack is not a weapon and therefore cannot be twin linked, it's essentially a big stack of ammo that means you can shoot a lot more at the target with one weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 09:03

Isn't a reroll defined in the main rulebook even (don't have it on me right now)? I believe they define it exactly as Burning_Eye decribes it at 1.

It's funny, I personally never had a problem with the wording of the splinter rack. I alwas read it as rerolling 'to hit' rolls. So if I failed a hit, I could reroll that 'to hit' roll to see if I would hit now. Seems pretty clear to me IMHO.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 10:00

The wording seems quite clear to me, although I'm sure there were better ways of phrasing it. It applies to models, not units, it's optional (may) and can if so desired be used to reroll hits as well as misses. The only thing I'm uncertain of is whether a model would have to reroll all their shots or if they can choose which ones to reroll. If it's all or nothing then it's a pain because you would have to roll each models shots separately.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 10:37

a model may reroll their to hit rolls, any type, doesnt say all to hit, so basically, if you want to hit less, you can try to reroll the hits, if you want to hit, you can reroll the fail to hits, it doesnt specify to reroll all to hits, and who wants to hit less? Very Happy

So basically, it is a strange twin-link, but it is used that way none the less, so models embarked on a transport with this beauty basically get a grotesque twin-link twist rule, but get twin-link rerolls none the less, although the rule doesnt say it is twin-link, the usage is Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 10:54

@Enfernux wrote:
a model may reroll their to hit rolls, any type, doesnt say all to hit, so basically, if you want to hit less, you can try to reroll the hits, if you want to hit, you can reroll the fail to hits, it doesnt specify to reroll all to hits, and who wants to hit less? Very Happy

Don't mean to insult you, but sometimes your posts are a bit difficult to read to be honest. Smile But I think we all agree on this part, this is not an issue. To see if I understand what you mean: You can also reroll your 'to hit' rolls even if they succeeded. Why you would do that is beyond me and not in the scope of this question. So, let's not discuss this any further please. It's clear.

@Enfernux wrote:
So basically, it is a strange twin-link, but it is used that way none the less, so models embarked on a transport with this beauty basically get a grotesque twin-link twist rule, but get twin-link rerolls none the less, although the rule doesnt say it is twin-link, the usage is Smile

But here all of a sudden your post piqued my interest. What do you write here? That a grotesque could reroll their template weapon (whats that thing called again)? This discussion has been here before. IIRC the entry for splinterracks mentions specifically which weapons can be rerolled. So... No. No "twin-link twist rule" on your Grotesques as you put it and if I understood you correctly.


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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 10:59

tlronin...do you know what the word grotesque means in real life? If i were to write im gona get me some coffe, can you imagine i am saying that my archon pops in to her raider in commorragh, flashez a warp gate open, comes to the earth, massacres the inhabitants, goes in to a gas station and puts stolen money in to a machine to get espresso?

Edit: since this is my 500th post, ill ask it here, can someone mod my rank to say....draconess? Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not?   Are Splinter Racks Twin linked or not? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 11:35

@Enfernux wrote:
tlronin...do you know what the word grotesque means in real life? If i were to write im gona get me some coffe, can you imagine i am saying that my archon pops in to her raider in commorragh, flashez a warp gate open, comes to the earth, massacres the inhabitants, goes in to a gas station and puts stolen money in to a machine to get espresso?

Edit: since this is my 500th post, ill ask it here, can someone mod my rank to say....draconess? Very Happy

Oh, you didn't mean the unit. Ok, your post makes more sense now. Except this whole bit about coffee. Now I want some. *gets some coffee*

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