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 MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?

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wolffgard
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PostSubject: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 08:34

Greetings!

I have had my first game using the 6th edition rules. After first having gotten the impression our army is weakened, I started concentrating on constructing a list that did not try to perform well at everything, and decided to focus on one thing we do very well – shooting. Before I knew it – I had once again reverted to a MSU list. The changes I have made to my earlier lists are basically reducing my Wych units to 6 using them to hunt tanks or transports, and refitting 2 out of my 3 Trueborn units with DL instead of Blasters. I have also changed my HQ. Earlier I used 2 Hem to go with my two Wych units, but since they are pretty easy kill points and I am not focusing on close combat, I am using a Arcon with SF and a Blaster only.

During my test games I have found the list still to be powerful. It has anti tank, plenty of shooting to deal with infantry and to take on / out Terminators. I “held back” turn 1 opening fire, stopping advance from transports, then focusing from turn 2 on infantry and the opponents tanks. The Razorwing fighters hit hard, fly off, and hit hard again. When a couple of units reached my line (mainly deep striking terminators) I lost one (max two units) unit, and “left the area” going flat out, re engaging with long range fire next turn.

I was wondering if someone could comment on my reasoning – that the MSU shooting list is still playable and working well. This is the list that I have used – so fare. I am entering a tournament in august, and I consider taking this list (use indicated).

Hope you guys can give me some of your thoughts (also posted as army list).

Arcon
- with Blaster and Shadow Field

6 X Wyches
- with Haywire Grenades and Raider with Dark Lance
6 X Wyches
- with Haywire Grenades and Raider with Dark Lance
=> used as flank units, holding back, trying to take out transports, or zoom into enemy deployment zone late in the game

5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Raider with Dark Lance
5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Raider with Dark Lance
=> used against tank / transport from range

5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
=> used against infantry form range

5 X Kabalite Trueborn
- with 2 X Dark Lance and Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
5 X Kabalite Trueborn
- with 2 X dark Lance and Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
=> deployed separately, Trueborn in cover, against tank / infantry

3 X Kabalite Trueborn
- with 3 X Blaster and Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
(Arcon goes in this unit), advancing on one flank trying to take out heavy armoured transports or terminators

Ravager
- with 3 X Dark Lance, Night Shield and Flickerfield
=> Holding back, against tank
Razorwing Jetfighter
- with 2 X Disintegrator Cannon, Splinter Cannon and Flickerfield
Razorwing Jetfighter
- with 2 X Disintegrator Cannon, Splinter Cannon and Flickerfield
=> Infantry hunting and massed light armoured tank formations

Total: 1750p
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 09:27

Looks good, even if it's not quite my favorite style.

Ravagers can do well without Flickers, thx New Good Jink Rule.
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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 17:14

Personally, I'd drop the Ravager's flickerfield and give both of the Wych Raiders either shock prows or sails. The sails would be useful for getting just about anywhere on the table by turn 2, and the prows make the Raider useful as a weapon if it loses its Lance.

Still, looks like it has potential.

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 22 2012, 16:14

@theblackjackal wrote:
Personally, I'd drop the Ravager's flickerfield and give both of the Wych Raiders either shock prows or sails. The sails would be useful for getting just about anywhere on the table by turn 2, and the prows make the Raider useful as a weapon if it loses its Lance.

Still, looks like it has potential.

I think that Shock Prows are a fair bit less useful under 6th. They're mainly good for Tank Shocing nearby units, in which case Torment Grenade Launchers are a good investment if you want to do more than force models about for wound allocation. That's a fair investment in a vehicle that is in general more likely to be destroyed than to simply lose its weapon. And a disarmed Raider with no other upgrades can still provide mobile cover and "corral" enemy movement.
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CaptainBalroga
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 22 2012, 20:10

I agree with Allandrel. Raiders are much more valuable as taxis for your units than as Tank Shockers. It is a rare game that I have a Raider or Venom not actively ferrying troops where they need to be.

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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 22 2012, 20:24

It's probably a difference in local metagame. All of the players I face against regularly tend to be more static in their preferred method of play, so once I'm in their lines my Raiders become less important as transports and more as fire support and troop herding units.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 22 2012, 20:27

@theblackjackal wrote:
It's probably a difference in local metagame. All of the players I face against regularly tend to be more static in their preferred method of play, so once I'm in their lines my Raiders become less important as transports and more as fire support and troop herding units.

You must face a lot of bubble wrap! In that case I can understand why the ability to Tank Shock is invaluable to you.

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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 23 2012, 03:09

Have you considered dropping the trueborn for more basic warriors? I have been having huge success running 2 full raiders with 10 warriors x1 splinter cannon and using racks for the re-roll to hit. 9 shots (18 at rapid fire) with re-rolls to hit + splinter cannon is BRUTAL, and warriors are scoring units also. In addition to the splinter racks I equip all vehicles with night shields now. Night shields got a buff in this edition because they reduce not only weapon distance 6", but rapid fire counting distance 6". This severely cripples rapid fire opportunity on your boats, and with most armies (at least against the meta I see) focusing on dominating mid-range fire power now with deadly rapid fire thanks to the 6th edition rules night shields are even more awesome now.

I take only ravagers still, razorwings/voidravens have sucked in every 6th game i've used them in (5 or 6) because they are AV10/11 and you cant hold them back and fire from long range like in 5th ed, you have to move forward because of zooming rules and even light enemy AA fire will take them down, especially with rapid fire providing lots of shots and many weapons offering twin-linked capability. These units are super expensive for what you get, not even being able to fire all 4 missiles when they come in from reserve. Ravagers are firing 3 dark lances turn 1 and can sit back, so they are more effective for the points cost in my experience.

Also, have you considered throwing a unit of beasts in? I roll 3-4 beast masters and 6-8 razorwings, they are dirt cheap and have 5 rending attacks each (6 on the charge). The beast masters are all characters as well so there are some interesting LOS shenanigans you can play (LOS all S5 and lower to the razorwings who have 5 wounds each and let the S6+ hit the beast masters so none of the flock are instant killed). In bigger games roll them with the baron for stealth, PGL and hit-and run fun! Beasts are awesome at distracting your opponent or for counter-attacking CC units or MC that invade your half of the board. And in the Scouring mission they count as scoring!
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Yadahr of the Stolen Star
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 15 2012, 23:25

@Guile22 wrote:
Also, have you considered throwing a unit of beasts in? I roll 3-4 beast masters and 6-8 razorwings, they are dirt cheap and have 5 rending attacks each (6 on the charge). The beast masters are all characters as well so there are some interesting LOS shenanigans you can play (LOS all S5 and lower to the razorwings who have 5 wounds each and let the S6+ hit the beast masters so none of the flock are instant killed).

sorry, but i'm still a bit unfamiliar with 6th Ed. aren't swarms eternal warriors?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 16 2012, 00:00

@Yadahr of the Stolen Star wrote:
@Guile22 wrote:
Also, have you considered throwing a unit of beasts in? I roll 3-4 beast masters and 6-8 razorwings, they are dirt cheap and have 5 rending attacks each (6 on the charge). The beast masters are all characters as well so there are some interesting LOS shenanigans you can play (LOS all S5 and lower to the razorwings who have 5 wounds each and let the S6+ hit the beast masters so none of the flock are instant killed).

sorry, but i'm still a bit unfamiliar with 6th Ed. aren't swarms eternal warriors?

Not in 6th and, to the best of my knowledge, not in any other edition either. In any event, razorwing flocks are not swarms.

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: MSU shooting list in 6th still viable?   MSU shooting list in 6th still viable? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 17 2012, 03:54

@wolffgard wrote:
Greetings!
I have had my first game using the 6th edition rules. After first having gotten the impression our army is weakened, I started concentrating on constructing a list that did not try to perform well at everything, and decided to focus on one thing we do very well – shooting. Before I knew it – I had once again reverted to a MSU list. The changes I have made to my earlier lists are basically reducing my Wych units to 6 using them to hunt tanks or transports, and refitting 2 out of my 3 Trueborn units with DL instead of Blasters. I have also changed my HQ. Earlier I used 2 Hem to go with my two Wych units, but since they are pretty easy kill points and I am not focusing on close combat, I am using a Arcon with SF and a Blaster only.

During my test games I have found the list still to be powerful. It has anti tank, plenty of shooting to deal with infantry and to take on / out Terminators. I “held back” turn 1 opening fire, stopping advance from transports, then focusing from turn 2 on infantry and the opponents tanks. The Razorwing fighters hit hard, fly off, and hit hard again. When a couple of units reached my line (mainly deep striking terminators) I lost one (max two units) unit, and “left the area” going flat out, re engaging with long range fire next turn.

I was wondering if someone could comment on my reasoning – that the MSU shooting list is still playable and working well. This is the list that I have used – so fare. I am entering a tournament in august, and I consider taking this list (use indicated).

Your reasoning is sound and it indeed what I also found. With the rule changes and the way wound allocation is done, any Dark Eldar player worth their salt would definitely a list with much more ranged firepower and scoring units. MSU is designed with the sole idea of having as many scoring units and shooting units. Not to mention that our vehicles are more durable than before in a weird way.

However, it is also a given that infantry formations are now even more important than before and breaking it as fast as possible is high on our priorities and thus assaulting units do still have a place in a Dark Eldar list. We just need to choose a much more durable unit that can take it like a boss. In this weird sense, Beastmasters have taken a level in badass in this department as they are durable enough and also spam rending attacks. Indeed a number of our fast attack have gained much prominence, for example the Reavers with their ridiculous speed, heat lances and bladevanes, and also Scourges with their haywire blasters of doom.

My experience tells me that the only weakness of a Dark Eldar MSU list is that in order to capture objectives they need to get out from the vehicle and jumpu out which makes the more vulnerable. Thus to balance the list out, fast denial units such as Reavers and Beastmaster is quite important as they could enter into the enemy deployment zone and attempt to achieve the linebreaker secondary objective and also contest primary objectives, In addition, they could also patch up the holes of a MSU list quite well as they are tough enough to take it for the team.

Quote :

Arcon
- with Blaster and Shadow Field

Where will the Archon go? And honestly if you just want him to shoot, ignore the Shadowfield. With the cost of the shadowfield you can get even more blasters or lances.

Quote :

6 X Wyches
- with Haywire Grenades and Raider with Dark Lance
6 X Wyches
- with Haywire Grenades and Raider with Dark Lance
=> used as flank units, holding back, trying to take out transports, or zoom into enemy deployment zone late in the game

Fair enough. I am using a similar tactic but with more wyches so that if the vehicle explodes a number would still survive. If you have the points put even more wyches in here. If you are not using the Haemonculus always consider maxing out the squad. And take the hekatrix and a venom blade or even an agoniser to bully sergeants in challenges.

Quote :

5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Raider with Dark Lance
5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Raider with Dark Lance
=> used against tank / transport from range

Need blasters right here for the warriors. However seeing that you are just using them for the raider, I suggest that taking a Haemonculus here and unlocking Wracks as troops would make this endeavour much more cheaper. 3 Wracks with a Raider cost around 90 points.

Quote :

5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
5 X Kabalite Warriors
- with Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
=> used against infantry form range

For these guys I suggest blasters for sure and do not even bother switching them out for anything else.. Making it both a blaster and splinter cannon platform can help, especially in overwatch when things charge the vehicle.

[quote[
5 X Kabalite Trueborn
- with 2 X Dark Lance and Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
5 X Kabalite Trueborn
- with 2 X dark Lance and Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
=> deployed separately, Trueborn in cover, against tank / infantry
[/quote]

Could be done that way as well. But at the same time, snap-firing from vehicles should be considered from these guys. I would suggest bringing it down to 3 men minimum to further give yourself more points to play around with.

Quote :

3 X Kabalite Trueborn
- with 3 X Blaster and Venom with 2 X Splinter Cannon
(Arcon goes in this unit), advancing on one flank trying to take out heavy armoured transports or terminators

Fair enough. Could use another Blasterborn, but I also tend to use 3-4 blasterborn myself.

Quote :

Ravager
- with 3 X Dark Lance, Night Shield and Flickerfield
=> Holding back, against tank
Razorwing Jetfighter
- with 2 X Disintegrator Cannon, Splinter Cannon and Flickerfield
Razorwing Jetfighter
- with 2 X Disintegrator Cannon, Splinter Cannon and Flickerfield
=> Infantry hunting and massed light armoured tank formations

Drop the flickerfield for the Ravager. The new Jink makes them quite redundant unless you want to move into dangerous terrain or something.

The Razorwing.......I think they should be used in a much better capacity than this. They are also effectively the anti-flyer of your list as well, so taking the Dark Lances would be in your best interest as you will be facing against at least 1-3 flyers in any tournament. Splinter cannons will not help much as the earliest you could even fire the splinter cannon is a turn 3-4 (mostly turn 4) due to the way Flyers work with their weaponry. The missiles will always one of the 4 weapons being fired and also the disintegrators and lances. Not to mention that you have enough ground control with your other elements.

The list is alright, but it can be made to become even more deadlier.

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