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 1,850 point Webway Portal Force

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Roc
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PostSubject: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 18 2012, 23:22

A little backstory: With the advent of each new edition, I enjoy coming up with an alternative list (usually a tertiary list) that bucks most expectations that are expressed onto my army (Dark Eldar). In this case, dark matter, vehicles, and speed. Well I was not about to create a slow DE force, but I wanted to build an infantry based list, with minor air support (I have a razorwing, and want to use it).

So I've been working out what new units/combinations I want to try out, pared them down to which ones could work together best in a single list, and came up with the below WWP list for an 1,850 pt. game. This is a rough draft-- and I very rarely post rough drafts on message boards, so please hit me with the C&C, I really want to hear what you guys think. I should also note that I hate-- repeat hate-- running a WWP list with only one WWP. Unfortunately, with the unit combinations I wanted to try out, this appeared to be my best option.

(W) = Deployed in reserve
(B) = Deployed as normal

HQ: (190)
Baron Sathonyx- (XXX) (B)
Haemonculus, WWP- 85 (B)

Elites: (210)
3 Grotesques- 105 (W)
7 Mandrakes- 105 (B)

Troops: (464)
14 Hellions- 224 (B)
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)

Fast Attack: (272)
8 Reavers, 2 HL- 200 (B)
1 Beastmaster, 5 Khymerae- 72 (W)

Heavy Support: (270)
1 Talos, TLHL, CF- 115 (W)
1 Razorwing, FF - 155 (W)

Outcast Allies: (372)
Autarch, Power Weapon (Axe?), Mandiblasters- 90 (B)
5 Pathfinders- 120 (B)
6 Harlequins, 6 Kisses, Shadowseer- 162* (W)

Fortifications: (70)
Pathfinder Sniper Blind (PSB) (Aegis Defense Line w/Comms)- 70 (B)

Total: 1,848 Points.

*Note that I only included the harlequins as allies because they were updated in the Eldar FAQ, but not the Dark Eldar, and since I was taking the Pathfinders anyway, it did not seem to be a major issue.

The Strategy(Skip to "Analysis" below for a less detailed summary):

The general plan is to deploy the pathfinders w/in 2" of my deployment zone, and an easy scout move away from decent cover. The Haemonculus and Autarch would then be attached to the PF squad as they scout move into cover, w/in a 4" move or so of the PSB (Aegis). If I have first turn, the Haemonculus and Autarch move out 6" (Noting that under the current rules, both ICs should maintain the move through cover USR in order to make this move.

They would then join the unit of Mandrakes who had infiltrated into the PSB (Aegis). The Haemie would deposit his pain token with them, and then him and autarch would await reinforcements after activating the portal in the movement phase.

If opponent gets first turn, the Haemie and Autarch try to stick it out with the Pathfinders, and hope the enemy doesn't have enough to bring to bear/has enough trouble with the rest of the army.

Almost everything coming out of the portal is tough enough to endure one round of shooting against it. Grotesques, Khymerae, Talos, and Harlequins (2+ cover save popping out behind any one of the aforementioned).

The 4 squads of wyches are there for grenade spam on turn 2. If there's vehicles, that's 4 HG they get to launch to mess with something, backed up by the Talos coming out of the portal. If there's no vehicles, that's 4 plasma grenades. Reasonably I expect to be able to dish out 3 HP in one turn. If the enemy targets them, they may die fast. But he'll have to use 4 units to do it, and depending on how the cover is, there will be at least a 5+ cover save, I feel I could even rely on a 4+ if absolutely necessary. Further, depending on the damage to the wyches, 20 wyches or so is a decent CC unit in the next phase.

The Autarch will ideally tag onto the Grotesques as they come out of the portal (to take advantage of the T , among some other things).

Baron will be used to bounce around with the Reavers, Hellions, and Grotesques. Reavers to grant them a 3+ cover save in a turn they plan on hitting a tank, jsj and infantry unit, or move, shoot, assault, hit and run. If the reavers don't have the baron, they will be turbo-boosting to lay out what pain they can with bladevanes.

I hope to attach him to the autarch/grotesque unit at some point in the game to give the grotes hit and run. Ideally, T3 they charge, T4 they disengage towards another target (and the army shoots the remnants of what squad they left behind).

Baron with the Hellions for stealth and difficult terrain tests on a turn when they need it.

Analysis:

Essentially, putting out 70 infantry troops with a whole lot of AI. This is designed to do several things: (1) Throw the opponent, hoping he hasn't seen a list quite like this, (2) make any points he spent on AT fairly worthless, (3) Give me versatile units that can rely on amount of wounds and IC/Unit synergy to take out any opposing infantry, while maintaining enough AT to handle any of the tank heavy armies. (With 3 HLs, 30ish Haywire Grenades in 6ish squads, plus the big-guys in CC for AT).

The two things I am truly concerned about are bunkers (only 3 "bunker buster" weapons in the army), and flyer spam. However, I feel that we don't really have an answer for flyer spam, and I'm not too concerned I'll see more than one bunker every handful of games.

Further, this is a deceptively resilient force. I am looking at 2 units to have a regular 3+ cover save, 2 more units to regularly have a 2+ cover save outside of CC, ICs with a 2++ and 4++, two units with 5++, and (with the exception of the wyches and hellions) mostly T5 or T7 multi-wound models. That's half an army with some solid save capacity (and at least the Hellions could hit that when they need to with the Baron). So really, that's a mere 20 models out of 70ish that are vulnerable-- and they have a 4++ in CC!

Alternatives:
One thing I was considering (among many), was dropping a squad of wyches for a Quad Gun (to be manned by the Haemie who really is just providing challenge fodder for the 'drakes at this point) and some other fun (more hellions/reavers or reaver + HL).

Always, other suggested alternatives are appreciated!

And if you read this entire post- I'm impressed and really want to hear what you think! pirat
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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 18 2012, 23:45

I love different lists, and our flexibility to pull them off.

I've begun taking a Talos lately and have had good luck with it. Draws in and takes a bunch of fire, allowing the rest of the troops to do what they want pretty much unmolested.

I do not yet know much about the CW Eldar, but will be learning as I pick up Eldrad. The Hellions are going to be hard to cover with that size...however could very well do a bunch of damage before the end.

I also see issues with Wyches portability with no transport and coming from the webway...could get shot up before they get a chance to pop transports.

Reavers, I think, will be an annoying nightmare for your opponent and would not be surprised if they tried to position themselves to intercept in some way....manipulate that!

Let us know how it goes.
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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 18 2012, 23:52

Actually, that's a really good point about the hellions. The large blob is an artifact from when the list was designed to put them with Sathonyx at all times. Perhaps ditching that idea and forming two units of 7 would be beneficial. Easier to take out one squad, but two squads puts me at 7 (yes, 7!) scoring units in a standard mission.

Definitely worth the thought.

I do see some issues with the Wyches myself. Which is why they a grenade laden, so they can at least get a turn of shooting (at least 14" from the center line). I'm hoping the MSU, cover, and more imposing threats will be enough to deter my opponent.

Thanks Static.

My other major concern is that I have 36 models coming out of one webway in one turn. That's just asking to be blast templated/attacked. This is why I really prefer 2 portals, but just couldn't find that extra 85 points. The only thought I had was dropping a unit of wyches, a hellion, and a khymerae to free up 90 points.

Also, something I just realized. The Harlequins will have to go back up to the primary force, as allies cannot use the WWP. Guess their rules will just be something I have to iron out before each game.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 06:06

I do not think this will work, I will explain my point of view.

Note: 1 WWP will work generally if

A) You got a solid guarantee method of deploying that works despite who goes first, mission and deployment conditions
B) The units in the WWP would be able to adapt to a poorly placed portal or an entirely blocked portal

Roc wrote:
Baron Sathonyx(B)

The Baron and Hellions are naturals for the portal and do not mind it being blocked. The will also do well no matter where you put the portal in relation to any targets or objectives - these guys are portal masters.

Quote :
Haemonculus, WWP- 85 (B)

I believe any kill point or victory point should have at least a decent gun or decent ccw - my minimum suggestion is at least a liquifier. Even if this guy dies without firing it at least the unit he is with will have an awesome overwatch round for only a few points.

Quote :
3 Grotesques- 105 (W)

As much as I love to see Grotesques in a list I do not think they belong here. You would have to use the Haemy to babysit these guys and they are really lack luster the way you have equipped them. I would like to suggest that if you run them then at least take a liquifier since they can not assault out of the portal and add an aberration to boost output and an option to "look out master" or for challenges.

I would drop these guys unless you are willing to invest some points in them.

Quote :
7 Mandrakes- 105 (B)

I have used 10 in a game and can't really be thrilled to only have 7 with no nightfiend. I think they are anemic in this configuration and would rather see you drop the Grotesques to beef these guys up or drop these guys to beef the Grotesques up. My feelings are that the Grotesques are more useful and forget about the mandrakes altogether. You could either put the Haemy in the Grotesque squad and have them escort Haemy forward in cover.

Quote :
14 Hellions- 224 (B)

I now notice a trend you not taking any upgrade characters, that is too bad. I would easily drop a Hellion to add a Helliarch, they have the cheapest agoniser or you could even go with a power lance or a stun claw to good use. The Helliarch is an option to consider for challenges and a leadership boost when the Baron is not there.

Quote :
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)
5 Wyches, HG- 60 (W)

I have played with 2 squads of 10 in a portal and what I have found was there is usually only 1 unit that is going to be near enough to charge however that was with a portal that was aggressively placed by using a raider (not by walking). Your portal location is everything to these units and they are really not durable enough to spend 2 or 3 turn running to a target. Remember that they can not assault out of a portal so they will all have to have some cover to run into and then have run out of cover to assault something dumb enough to be run down by chicks in bikini's on foot.

Even when I used to be able to assault out of a portal with very aggressive portal placement usually only 1 wych squad was either available or only had room to assault. You also have to consider all the other units coming out of 1 portal, the real estate around the portal will get precious and they all will be competing for the 1 dumb enemy unit that was stupid enough to get close. I do not see any opportunity for these units to do well coming out of the portal. They are a scoring unit that is T3, weak armor save and not really large enough to do any assaults or handle being assaulted - they will die horribly.

Quote :
8 Reavers, 2 HL- 200 (B)

These units are also naturals from the portal. I would easily drop a bike or two to put in Caltrops. And if caltrops are not your thing then I would drop a bike or two to put in a champion and some sort of power weapon. People usually make sure bikes die early so as soon as they emerge they will get shoot or assaulted. I like them alot in this list.

Quote :
1 Beastmaster, 5 Khymerae- 72 (W)

Wow, an upgrade character! Only because you had to eh? This squad used to be a natural out of the portal but they still rock - however I believe they can do just as well out of the portal with the new rules. As for the configuration, hell no. Not worth the points and a easily killed. The squad needs more and there too many reasons why I do not know how where to start. Drop them because it would take many more points to make them good and it would easier to just use these points somewhere else (like the heavy support choices).

Quote :
1 Talos, TLHL, CF- 115 (W)

A natural in the portal, can withstand poor portal placement and has some shooting options on the turn it emerges from the portal (since it cannot charge).

Quote :
1 Razorwing, FF - 155 (W)

Hokie Cow! A vehical? What do you have against Raiders and Ravagers? I personally would take a Talos over a Ravager anyday but no need to skip out on a Raider or two.

If you had any points floating around and you are still using those wych formations then I suggest you get a Cronos to try and rack up some token. It may still be cheap enough to add if you drop some of the stuff I mentioned and it would give your list not only a chance to get some tokens but take fire off the more delicate units like the wyches and hellions.

Quote :
Autarch, Power Weapon (Axe?), Mandiblasters- 90 (B)

Hmmm, not sure about this guys powers to the reserve rolls as you certainly do not want all your wyches coming out on the 2nd turn deep on you own side of the table? Remember that you are only advancing the Haemy 6" forward - there is still 6" to the midline and another 12" to the enemy's deployment zone. Dunno about you but I am not that lucky in rolling a "12" on a 2d6 charge.

Another thought, coupled with the comm relay, it allows you to re-roll as well? So if you do not get all your units to come out with a 2+ chance you get to re-roll the "1's", for 20 points? If you had all hellions or more bikes or more beasts or other stuff that really thrive coming out of the portal AND will devastate the opponent when they arrive by shooting then maybe. Grotesques, wyches and beasts are not shooting experts and I really see no need to pay extra points to absolutely have these units emerge turn 2 - no way.

Quote :
5 Pathfinders- 120 (B)

I actually like this formation even though it is a min/max squad. I think there is something to consider here but I have never used them so I will quit right here.

Quote :
6 Harlequins, 6 Kisses, Shadowseer- 162* (W)

HaHa! Another upgrade character, well, not really. Might as well give them Fusion Pistols since they can not charge out of the portal. They would even be better to escort the Haemy for WWP placement.

Quote :
Fortifications: (70)
Pathfinder Sniper Blind (PSB) (Aegis Defense Line w/Comms)- 70 (B)

Just take the Aegis Defense Line (ADL) with no comm. Or change the Autarch to a Farseer and keep the comm but not both - overkill, there should be no hurry in getting your naked wyches to be shot at so early.

Quote :
*Note that I only included the harlequins as allies because they were updated in the Eldar FAQ, but not the Dark Eldar, and since I was taking the Pathfinders anyway, it did not seem to be a major issue.

People keep bringing this up - I do not understand. I used the Eldar FAQ for my Dark Eldar Harlequins back in 5th and I see no reason to not do it in 6th. Are opponents really that uptight? My gaming group knows the Harlequins are the same in every aspect but if you gaming circles are that competitive then whatever. If you had a Farseer I guess you could fortune this squad now that they are Eldar units, they would be fun to play with for sure.

The Strategy(Skip to "Analysis" below for a less detailed summary):

Quote :
The general plan is to deploy the pathfinders w/in 2" of my deployment zone, and an easy scout move away from decent cover. The Haemonculus and Autarch would then be attached to the PF squad as they scout move into cover, w/in a 4" move or so of the PSB (Aegis). If I have first turn, the Haemonculus and Autarch move out 6" (Noting that under the current rules, both ICs should maintain the move through cover USR in order to make this move.

I dunno what this all is - is the haemy and autarch separating from the pathfinders? Cuz it looks like they are going to scout out of the deployment zone but when the turn starts they IC's are going to move forward but the pathfinders are retreating back into their deployment zone to get into the Aegis defense line?

Quote :
They would then join the unit of Mandrakes who had infiltrated into the PSB (Aegis).

I thought the ADL (fortifications) had to be placed completely in your deployment zone (pg. 120, first paragraph).

Quote :
The Haemie would deposit his pain token with them, and then him and autarch would await reinforcements after activating the portal in the movement phase.

The portal is activated in the shooting phase but getting a token to the mandrakes is nice but if the Mandrakes are in the ADL then they are all in their own deployment zone in which case they made a great big circle on the battlefield before the end of turn 1.

Quote :
Almost everything coming out of the portal is tough enough to endure one round of shooting against it. Grotesques, Khymerae, Talos, and Harlequins (2+ cover save popping out behind any one of the aforementioned).

Since they are Eldar Harlequins then they can not use the web way portal - only Dark Eldar Harlequins can use the portal.

Quote :
The 4 squads of wyches are there for grenade spam on turn 2. If there's vehicles, that's 4 HG they get to launch to mess with something, backed up by the Talos coming out of the portal. If there's no vehicles, that's 4 plasma grenades. Reasonably I expect to be able to dish out 3 HP in one turn. If the enemy targets them, they may die fast. But he'll have to use 4 units to do it, and depending on how the cover is, there will be at least a 5+ cover save, I feel I could even rely on a 4+ if absolutely necessary. Further, depending on the damage to the wyches, 20 wyches or so is a decent CC unit in the next phase.

Ever have an opponent who just decided to stay back and wait and see what comes out of the portal? You got one portal that might get out more than 6" from your deployment zone - one portal is easy to avoid if that is all you got and not being able to assault out of the portal on the turn they emerge means the wyches will either have to withstand shooting while the tanks all move away or the enemy decided to bubble wrap their rhinos and rapid fire and then overwatch you when you try to assault. You are being too optimistic with the entire wych idea you have.

Quote :
The Autarch will ideally tag onto the Grotesques as they come out of the portal (to take advantage of the T , among some other things).

Did you know that 50% of your force has to start on the table? Did you know that you are 2 units shy for the units starting on the board? And that is counting the fortification as a unit (although I haven't seen anything that says that they are). Just start the Grotesques on the board, they have no shooting and no assault gizmos to make them good so you might as well use them as a meat shield or something.

Quote :
Baron will be used to bounce around with the Reavers, Hellions, and Grotesques. Reavers to grant them a 3+ cover save in a turn they plan on hitting a tank, jsj and infantry unit, or move, shoot, assault, hit and run. If the reavers don't have the baron, they will be turbo-boosting to lay out what pain they can with bladevanes.

What unit is he starting with? You have to declare which or if he is going solo. I understand what he can do for all these units but right now he looking like a dog running through a fireworks display - pick a unit (preferably the Hellions) and you can separate him later or whatever.

And yes, I read the entire post but I have given up with the rest of your analysis - I am tired. I can see you have the foresight to plan out a WWP list and walk in your head what each unit is going to do in order to get the wwp deployed. You are, for the most part, close to your expectations as far as dropping the wwp.

Where you are falling off the mark is how the units in reserve are going to experience when they emerge from their side of he board, can't assault and find 1850 points of the enemy out of assault reach just waiting for you to appear (can you say, "ducks in a barrel?").

The other mechanics of 50% reserves, where the fortifications go and (and this is the big one) you can't assault on the turn you emerge from the portal.

How about this: see how fast you will run out of room around that one portal - have you tried it? I want you to try it, put a portal down on any table and take all the reserve units you have and put out 98% of them the best you can in one movement phase - you would be literally be putting your units behind the portal because there will be no room in front of it - what the point in that?

So this all looks like sampler plate of all the Dark Eldar units in the codex with no real means of transportation for them. I take it you do not want to buy a raider or venom and figure that you would just use not 2 but 1 wwp instead and save yourself some money. Little do most people realize that using the wwp is tougher to use than using raiders (not to mention just 1 wwp) and just having 1 or 2 raiders in the list makes it easier.

I really want to see you succeed with wwp but I find that some people who want to dabble with the wwp just do not grasp the idea right away, they get creamed and then become venom spam types - please do not become a venom spam type

_________________
Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....


Last edited by Grumpy Kwi on Thu Jul 19 2012, 19:43; edited 1 time in total
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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 17:50

Grumpy, thank you for the comments. It has definitely given me something to think about. Additionally, I appreciate your reading through the entire post. However, I think there may be some basic principles to this list that might not have been as clearly expressed as they could have been.

Primarily, the deployment of the portal. This seems to be where a lot of your concern is placed. Because the portal haemie will be attached to the pathfinder squad at the beginning of the game (ICs can attach at deployment), the haemie will benefit from the 6" scout move. Between the scout move and his first turn move, he will be able to move 12" from the starting line and deploy the portal. As such, the outer edge of the portal can be deployed 3" into the opponents table half. Combined with the 6" movement the turn they come in, the 6" movement the second turn, and a reliable 8" assault on the units with fleet, that's a T3 threat range of 23" from the center line.

Or for grenades, it would be a 17" threat from the center line (good for nearly half the depth of the enemy deployment zone). Granted, this does not take into account lateral shifts-- but that's what the rest of the army is for.

Additionally, as far as what is put in the portal:
Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Did you know that 50% of your force has to start on the table? Did you know that you are 2 units shy for the units starting on the board? And that is counting the fortification as a unit (although I haven't seen anything that says that they are). Just start the Grotesques on the board, they have no shooting and no assault gizmos to make them good so you might as well use them as a meat shield or something.

The current list has a total of 15 Units. Not counting the Razorwing or Fortification (as those do not count). 8 of them are slated to start in the portal: 4xWyches, Beastmaster, Grotesques, and Harlequins. The autarch is meant to be at the portal to join them at the end of that movement phase, he is not coming out of the portal.

Also:
Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Quote :
*Note that I only included the harlequins as allies because they were updated in the Eldar FAQ, but not the Dark Eldar, and since I was taking the Pathfinders anyway, it did not seem to be a major issue.

People keep bringing this up - I do not understand. I used the Eldar FAQ for my Dark Eldar Harlequins back in 5th and I see no reason to not do it in 6th. Are opponents really that uptight?

Sadly, sometimes yes.

Further:
Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Since they are Eldar Harlequins then they can not use the web way portal - only Dark Eldar Harlequins can use the portal.

Aye, this was addressed in the post immediately preceding yours. As such, I'll just have to deal with the discussion of which harlequin rules I am using prior to each game.

With that addressed, you've definitely brought up a number of points for discussion.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
I now notice a trend you not taking any upgrade characters, that is too bad. I would easily drop a Hellion to add a Helliarch, they have the cheapest agoniser or you could even go with a power lance or a stun claw to good use. The Helliarch is an option to consider for challenges and a leadership boost when the Baron is not there.

This comes from my fantasy experience. I much prefer extra bodies than the character upgrades, and only took champions/characters when I knew they would be protecting an IC. In many of my versions of this list, I did have the helliarch, it sounds like a good thing to add in. I'm still not sold on an aberration or an arena champion, but it is something that I may be convinced to do.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
I have used 10 in a game and can't really be thrilled to only have 7 with no nightfiend. I think they are anemic in this configuration and would rather see you drop the Grotesques to beef these guys up or drop these guys to beef the Grotesques up. My feelings are that the Grotesques are more useful and forget about the mandrakes altogether. You could either put the Haemy in the Grotesque squad and have them escort Haemy forward in cover.

This is one point we must respectfully disagree on. I have been playing Dark Eldar for 14 years at this point. For 14 years I have included mandrakes in almost every list. For almost a decade and a half, I have found them to be a useful utility knife, sorely underrated, and often poorly utilized. I have also found 7 to be one of their most points-efficient configurations.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
As much as I love to see Grotesques in a list I do not think they belong here. You would have to use the Haemy to babysit these guys and they are really lack luster the way you have equipped them. I would like to suggest that if you run them then at least take a liquifier since they can not assault out of the portal and add an aberration to boost output and an option to "look out master" or for challenges.

The grotesques are there as essentially 100 point cover/fire magnets. For 9 wounds at T5 and essentially a 5++ save, with the T able to be transferred to an IC, they are a rather point-efficient distraction unit, perfect for giving the harlequins a 2+ cover out in the open. As I said before, I could be convinced to put an aberration in there, and would like to include a liquifier gun if I could free up the points.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Quote :
Haemonculus, WWP- 85 (B)

I believe any kill point or victory point should have at least a decent gun or decent ccw - my minimum suggestion is at least a liquifier. Even if this guy dies without firing it at least the unit he is with will have an awesome overwatch round for only a few points.

Normally, I would agree. However points constrictions and the fact that KP/VP apply in one mission out of six now led me to be willing to drop the gun. I will see if I can free it up again.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Quote :
1 Beastmaster, 5 Khymerae- 72 (W)
Wow, an upgrade character! Only because you had to eh? This squad used to be a natural out of the portal but they still rock - however I believe they can do just as well out of the portal with the new rules. As for the configuration, hell no. Not worth the points and a easily killed. The squad needs more and there too many reasons why I do not know how where to start. Drop them because it would take many more points to make them good and it would easier to just use these points somewhere else (like the heavy support choices).

The beastmaster was there to provide some cover to other units, along with a 4++ to give me some cheap resilience and fodder. Essentially, they would play almost the same role as the grotesques, with a smaller upside (I always err towards redundancy on pivotal mechanisms). Perhaps you are right, either they should be shaved down to be more points effective, or dropped from the list entirely.

Although, with their extended move and other abilities, they could provide some nice gift-wrapping of more 'in-danger' units without adding to the traffic jam I am facing.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Quote :
1 Razorwing, FF - 155 (W)
Hokie Cow! A vehical? What do you have against Raiders and Ravagers? I personally would take a Talos over a Ravager anyday but no need to skip out on a Raider or two.

If you had any points floating around and you are still using those wych formations then I suggest you get a Cronos to try and rack up some token. It may still be cheap enough to add if you drop some of the stuff I mentioned and it would give your list not only a chance to get some tokens but take fire off the more delicate units like the wyches and hellions.

So this all looks like sampler plate of all the Dark Eldar units in the codex with no real means of transportation for them. I take it you do not want to buy a raider or venom and figure that you would just use not 2 but 1 wwp instead and save yourself some money. Little do most people realize that using the wwp is tougher to use than using raiders (not to mention just 1 wwp) and just having 1 or 2 raiders in the list makes it easier.

This vehicle was only included out of necessity, to have at least one thing to deal with enemy flyers. Perhaps mounting the defense line with a quad gun, dropping the jet would be an option. Though it would lose its ability to soak up firepower (I anticipate a number of people to attempt to concentrate on bringing it down), the ability to add another talos or chronos might be worth it.

As far as the lack of vehicles, as I mentioned in the first paragraph, this is designed to be a tertiary army. I play the same group of people fairly regularly, and this is designed to be somewhat of a "wildcard". Essentially, everytime an opponent is building a list against my DE (we usually know what we're facing that day beforehand), I want them to have to consider this. Think of it as my "Tebow" option, for those football fans out there--- something that gives people headaches because it must be prepared for, just in case.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Quote :
Autarch, Power Weapon (Axe?), Mandiblasters- 90 (B)

Hmmm, not sure about this guys powers to the reserve rolls as you certainly do not want all your wyches coming out on the 2nd turn deep on you own side of the table? Remember that you are only advancing the Haemy 6" forward - there is still 6" to the midline and another 12" to the enemy's deployment zone. Dunno about you but I am not that lucky in rolling a "12" on a 2d6 charge.

Another thought, coupled with the comm relay, it allows you to re-roll as well? So if you do not get all your units to come out with a 2+ chance you get to re-roll the "1's", for 20 points? If you had all hellions or more bikes or more beasts or other stuff that really thrive coming out of the portal AND will devastate the opponent when they arrive by shooting then maybe. Grotesques, wyches and beasts are not shooting experts and I really see no need to pay extra points to absolutely have these units emerge turn 2 - no way.

Quote :
Fortifications: (70)
Pathfinder Sniper Blind (PSB) (Aegis Defense Line w/Comms)- 70 (B)

Just take the Aegis Defense Line (ADL) with no comm. Or change the Autarch to a Farseer and keep the comm but not both - overkill, there should be no hurry in getting your naked wyches to be shot at so early.

Autarch only: 1 out of 6 misses T2. Comm Only: 1 out of 9 misses T2. Combined: 1 out of 36 misses. That is an exponential increase in reliability, and I will take that for just 20 points. Ensuring that everything comes out mid-board is quite important, as the army works on an msu basis of sorts (even if you fire everything, you won't be able to target every unit) in order to allow for survivability-- it just adds to the deceptive resilience of the list.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Quote :
They would then join the unit of Mandrakes who had infiltrated into the PSB (Aegis).

I thought the ADL (fortifications) had to be placed completely in your deployment zone (pg. 120, first paragraph).

Quote :
The Haemie would deposit his pain token with them, and then him and autarch would await reinforcements after activating the portal in the movement phase.

The portal is activated in the shooting phase but getting a token to the mandrakes is nice but if the Mandrakes are in the ADL then they are all in their own deployment zone in which case they made a great big circle on the battlefield before the end of turn 1.

Re-read pg.120, first paragraph. A fortification is placed anywhere on your table half. Not deployment zone. It gets right up there at the mid-line.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Quote :
Baron will be used to bounce around with the Reavers, Hellions, and Grotesques. Reavers to grant them a 3+ cover save in a turn they plan on hitting a tank, jsj and infantry unit, or move, shoot, assault, hit and run. If the reavers don't have the baron, they will be turbo-boosting to lay out what pain they can with bladevanes.

What unit is he starting with? You have to declare which or if he is going solo. I understand what he can do for all these units but right now he looking like a dog running through a fireworks display - pick a unit (preferably the Hellions) and you can separate him later or whatever.

I never specified a unit because where he is of most use will vary from game to game, board to board, etc. It would be folly to always have him in the same place regardless of your opponent. He will be placed where he is most needed. Jumping him around between three units, where he is most needed will take foresight and planning in the mid game, but I am looking forward to a new tactical challenge.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Where you are falling off the mark is how the units in reserve are going to experience when they emerge from their side of he board, can't assault and find 1850 points of the enemy out of assault reach just waiting for you to appear (can you say, "ducks in a barrel?").

The other mechanics of 50% reserves, where the fortifications go and (and this is the big one) you can't assault on the turn you emerge from the portal.

I believe I addressed most of the concerns with more clearly explaining where and how the ADL and WWP would be deployed. The 50% reserves is solid, the fortifications plan is kosher, and the not being able to assault is precisely why i set-up this tiered WWP force in this way, to allow them to take a round of punishment (generally anathema to DE). But like I said, looking to do something fairly opposite.

Now, the big issue:
Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Note: 1 WWP will work generally if
A) You got a solid guarantee method of deploying that works despite who goes first, mission and deployment conditions
B) The units in the WWP would be able to adapt to a poorly placed portal or an entirely blocked portal

How about this: see how fast you will run out of room around that one portal - have you tried it? I want you to try it, put a portal down on any table and take all the reserve units you have and put out 98% of them the best you can in one movement phase - you would be literally be putting your units behind the portal because there will be no room in front of it - what the point in that?

This, this, this, and this some more. My arguments for two WWP have always been the precise same as your's above. (I believe I just used my two starbucks on the same intersection explanation in another thread here). It is a major concern of mine, and one of the reasons I posted this list as a rough draft. Looking for ideas on how to include the second WWP. I think you have definitely given me some. I will continue to work on the list.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
I really want to see you succeed with wwp but I find that some people who want to dabble with the wwp just do not grasp the idea right away, they get creamed and then become venom spam types - please do not become a venom spam type

I appreciate the support. I really hope this works as well, as I definitely could use a more interesting wildcard army for my gaming group. Though I can assure you that I will not turn venom spam. My core lists have lasted for over a decade and I see no need to change them now. I'll probably rarely use more than 1 venom (I did invest in an entire fleet of raiders after all, and there's just something about playing with models that were assembled and painted so long ago they have legitimate battle damage on them).

Please, I'd love to know everyones further thoughts or suggestions in light of this new discussion! Keep the C&C coming.


Last edited by Roc on Thu Jul 19 2012, 20:53; edited 1 time in total
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 18:14

Roc wrote:
Because the portal haemie will be attached to the pathfinder squad at the beginning of the game (ICs can attach at deployment), the haemie will benefit from the 6" scout move. Between the scout move and his first turn move, he will be able to move 12" from the starting line and deploy the portal. As such, the outer edge of the portal can be deployed 3" into the opponents table half. Combined with the 6" movement the turn they come in, the 6" movement the second turn, and a reliable 8" assault on the units with fleet, that's a T3 threat range of 23" from the center line.

Clever! Not to mention with night fight those pathfinders have 3+ cover saves in the open if they are 12" or more away. Shame pathfinders are so expensive, at least precision shot makes them quite lethal a bit more lethal this edition.

Seeing as all your reserves come in on turn 2 with all your reserve modifiers, your best bet for another portal might be a second pathfinder squad.

If you didn't have all those reserve modifiers I would have suggested a venom turbo boost 30" in your first turn and pop a portal on their flank Turn 2. Are you sure you need all those reserve modifiers? Your portal looks like it will get congested fast. Sad
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 19:40

Well Roc, your 14 years really shows and I learned a thing of two from you as well - some really neat stuff!

So yes, I got my preferences with upgrade characters, just never saw anyone avoid them as much as this list does.

And we simply do not agree on how these units are going to function - not going to bother.

As for the reserve modifiers, I would say, "hell ya" if what was coming out of the portal was going to lay waste from shooting (or bloodvaning) but I just do not feel the opportunity is being taken advantage of (a difference in taste I suppose).

I can see Mushkilla eyes light up with Roc's scouting wwp and his 3 huge Reaver jetbike squads coming out - very nasty indeed.

I really like your scouting pathfinder wwp tactic - very nice!

Good luck and happy hunting!

P.S. I edited your original post to take out the Baron's exact cost - copyright issues, Kwi

_________________
Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 20:43

@Grumpy, Thanks for the well wishes and the edit (had a feeling I should have dropped the points) and my apologies for not explaining things as clearly at the beginning. You have really hit on some of the things I was concerned about previously and that reinforcement makes me think steps will be necessary to modify the list.

Also, you are right that the roles I am using a number of these units in are not their standard (or perhaps even preferred roles). I suppose that is part of me trying to push the envelope with this type of list to see what I can make work (I do love a challenge), and as I've said before, come up with a "WTF?" option to put in my standard army rotation. Honestly, I am not sure how comfortable I am with my troops choices in this list (though if I altered that, I'd really need to find AT somewhere...)

If this doesn't work, I suppose I will fall back to a more standard WWP list. Off the top of my head I imagine it would look something like this:

Haemie, WWP, weapon
Sathonyx
14 Hellions, Helliarch
2x10 Warriors, Blaster, SC, Raider
3x7 Reavers, 1 Cluster, 2 HLs
2x Talos, TLHB/HL

Autarch (bare to fire the QG)
Pathfinders

ADL, Quad-gun, comms

Think that comes out to about 1848, but again that's just off the top of my head so I could be far off. Maybe trade stg out for some haywire scourges.

For now, going to try something a little more out there and just see what happens.

Any suggestions about AT / Anti-Fliers / Finding room for the second portal?

@Mushkilla, if you really want to try the scouting haemonculus, remember the move through cover roll when he detaches. Because an IC only detaches when he leaves coherency, and the difficult terrain rolls are made before moving, when an IC disengages from a squad with move through cover, he gets to roll the extra D6 for DT.
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PostSubject: Re: 1,850 point Webway Portal Force   1,850 point Webway Portal Force I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 21:48

This is a great discussion guys, I'm really learning a lot form both of you. I'm a complete beginner when it comes to webway portals this edition. I used to use it in the old dex, but it was a whole different beast.

I only started using the "new" one other week when I realised reavers didn't work as effectively in Hammer and Anvil deployment when coming in from reserve.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

As for the reserve modifiers, I would say, "hell ya" if what was coming out of the portal was going to lay waste from shooting (or bloodvaning) but I just do not feel the opportunity is being taken advantage of (a difference in taste I suppose).

I am inclined to agree with this. When I read about the scouts the first thing I thought of was three talos appearing in the middle of the board with a load of hellions splinter weapons blazing on turn 2.

Roc wrote:

I suppose that is part of me trying to push the envelope with this type of list to see what I can make work (I do love a challenge)

Test! Test! Test! Pushing the envelope is always a good thing.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

I can see Mushkilla eyes light up with Roc's scouting wwp and his 3 huge Reaver jetbike squads coming out - very nasty indeed.

They sure did. Smile

Roc wrote:

@Mushkilla, if you really want to try the scouting haemonculus, remember the move through cover roll when he detaches. Because an IC only detaches when he leaves coherency, and the difficult terrain rolls are made before moving, when an IC disengages from a squad with move through cover, he gets to roll the extra D6 for DT.

Thanks for the advice. Its a great idea though as it stands, reavers don't really need to have a portal that far in. The portal is more of a tool, rather then something I build my army around.

I am really curious to see how your list plays. Keep us posted!
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