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 How do we best use Scourges?

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 18 2012, 18:46

What about Solarites? Shall we use them?
I just have that Power Lance craziness, want to pluck it everywhere.

Already thinking to convert my Autarch and Swooping Hawks with it.

Also we can have a pretty durable unit with Baron actually.

Stealth, PGL, and now brand new hit and run.

Probably all with just Shard Carbines, changing position to shoot focus fire shots.

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 18 2012, 22:10

I love scourges, but for their points cost, and relative frailty, there's a handful of situations I am comfortable putting them in. Though I do love non-conventional CC units being kitted for such. If you get to give it a shot, let us know how that works out for you. I'd like to hear more about it.

Otherwise, I stick to the 2x5 scourge 2hb.
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 18 2012, 22:54

HWRiffles are great against vehicles, no doubt about it, blasters are just very good against vehicles and useful in more situations, and, in my opinion better for that main reason :
- hwRifles are too expensive, because only a few units can year it ( scourges, Talos ), and 10 scourges for 4 hwRifles, it is really expensive, even though it is really effective against vehicles.
Quote :

2. you're only going to destroy a vehicle with a blaster/dark lance twice from 27 shots, which is not a 30% chance unless my maths is way off .
I mean when you get a 5 or 6 to wound with a blaster ( or less depending on the armor of the vehicle ), with AP2, it's 33% chance of explosion, and on most result the vehicle can become just useless.
HWRifles are great against vehicles, no doubt, but blaster are still very good weapons as well, and not only against vehicles.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 08:19

If blasters are better than HWB, then for sure a 5 warriors, plus 1 blaster, plus a venom is better than 5 scourges and 2 hwb for so many reasons and is a little cheaper. You have more AI, more mobility, a scoring troop, in the mission where FA score you don't give away 1VP if you lose the squad and a vehicle to give warriors some protection. But you lose 1 anti tank shot.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 13:37

^Good point, which suggests that if you're going to take scourges then it makes sense to make best use of their alternative weapon loadouts, ie: HWB, Shardcarbine, Heat Lance in whichever combination makes you feel most comfortable.

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 14:22

Blasters can be gotten elsewhere but HWBs are nearly unique to Scourges. They're very reliable way to strip hullpoints, and Scourges have a fairly large threat range (12''+24'', compared to 6''+18'' of a blaster Venom). They're quite fragile, tho, so one must be careful with them.

Personally, I'd prefer Scourges to Reavers, but I wasn't able to fit 6 Reavers with heatlances in my current list, while 5 Scourges with HWBs just fit in.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 14:32

And are you satisfied of the effectiveness of only 5 scourges ?
BTW, is it easy to create HWriffles from other weapons as I've been told that there would be only one per box of five models ?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 17:51

the talos has a twin linked HWB so if you've got one of those and are putting a different weapon on then you could use them to convert some more.
Can't really comment on the effectiveness of 5 scourges, I don't play too often sadly so I've only used them once. Took out a vindicator in one shot though (yup, rolled a double six!) but it was all over after that, my ravager had a great day killing all sorts of stuff and the games was over by turn 5.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 19:30

I really find that 10 scourges are too expensive, but maybe 5 do their job well : 2 HWB ( btw it's haywire blaster in english right ? it's translated to 'riffle' in french basically =/ ) are not enough to destroy a whole vehicle by themself, but they could just support the ravager/blasterborns I guess and still be effective againt Infantry.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 19:56

Scourges will be simple for me:

If I can only take 2 weapons then I'm taking the heatlances cuz I need that tank dead now, not relying on some other unit to finish it off. I've traded 5 scourges for a land raider before, so yes please.

I have taken 10 scourges before and I am curious to try them with 4 haywire blasters - the range difference between the two weapons is the kicker and with 6 ablative wounds I would be apt to skirt them more often and preserve them. My only fear is when I am facing a vehicle less list (then the heatlances edge them out when shooting at infantry).


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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 21:39

Five man Scourge squads with two haywire blasters are less effective than they were in 5th, as two probable glancing hits against most vehicles in the game will not wreck it, and whatever they just (maybe) knocked two hull points off will be coming after them next turn. To be really effective with haywire blasters, they need three or four, so it's a ten man squad, at which point they become an incredibly expensive one trick pony. They're good at their trick, but if they don't get to do it, you're in trouble! Ten with four HWBs within range of an allied Farseer casting Prescience on them would be just lovely Twisted Evil

They do look good on the table though, that has to be said!

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 24 2012, 22:51

Ever wondered what 50 scourges would look like?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3200066-gws
Sometimes I wish I worked at GW, if only for the discounts!

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 07:59

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Ever wondered what 50 scourges would look like?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3200066-gws
Sometimes I wish I worked at GW, if only for the discounts!

Yes, I saw that, and the 50 Hellions. Most impressive. But after the airbrushing, now for the detail work Mad

I will stick with my 20 Scourges for now.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 16:06

@Mr Believer wrote:
Five man Scourge squads with two haywire blasters are less effective than they were in 5th, as two probable glancing hits against most vehicles in the game will not wreck it, and whatever they just (maybe) knocked two hull points off will be coming after them next turn.

I disagree. Considering that they are almost a garenteed hull point, they are great for taking out damaged vehicles. Considering they are good for 1.111 glances on average, they are good for that pesky rhino or razorback w/ 1-2 HPs left. and for 130 pts I dont really expect much from them tbh. I think of them as insurrance, not a "OMGFTW" kill tank unit. When I need that tank dead, that is what lances are for. Scourges are just there to back them up when the darklight curse hits Razz

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 17:30

Uh, in what strange dimension did Haywire blasters get less effective than they were in 5th edition?! Sure you don't stunlock things anymore, but it STRIPS hull points from 24 inches! (And still pens on a 6) Even little 5 man squads toting two Haywire Blasters are a huge boon, since they'll reliably knock 1-2 hull points off. Follow up with a couple dark lance shots, and bam, vehicle gone.

The problem with Heat Lances is you gotta get within 9 inches. That's a wee bit close, and requires you to get within 24 inches on the previous turn. Might not be so bad if there's convenient cover, but it could be suicide across open ground. The Haywire Blaster, on the other hand, is effective from a max of 24 inches, so you get a nice little 36 inch threat bubble with it, closely matching your dark lances.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 18:36

They're less effective at suppression, as previously, a small squad was virtually guaranteed to stop a tank firing, and against a mech light list could hold something up by themselves, giving wyches time to close with it and grenade it to death, or whatever else you're using. And they were a suppression unit. No point giving something that moves that fast heavy weapons in 5th, as they had to land somewhere and sit still to use them, and you had to get too close to stuff with the other options, which made it a one way trip. For finishing stuff off, they're fine, obviously. Haywire blasters are still the best option, they just have to be used differently.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 20:03

@Mr Believer wrote:
Haywire blasters are still the best option, they just have to be used differently.

I will agree with that, haywire blasters have gone from supression unit to clean-up crew.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 25 2012, 23:32

As with everything, 6th has put a different slant on them. depends on how many points I've got spare I'd either take a unit of ten to go land raider hunting, or two smaller units, one to use as support for stripping hull points and the other as more of a tank killer with heat lances (and I mean tanks, nothing with a transport capacity unless it's Tau, not particularly scared of charging them!)

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KapitanGift
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 10:10

Could someone offer me some advice on what combos of Scourges, Dark Lance Raiders, and a Talos could be used against a Chaos Marines list featuring AT LEAST two Rhinos (likely containing Berzerkers) and two Defilers? I have two 5 man Scourges (2x Blasters both of them) and two Dark Lance Raiders (Warriors within are specifically anti-infantry). I understand the great points of the Haywire Blaster but Blasters are better for me because I face other armies much less vehicle-heavy that Blasters would do well against their elites.

Assuming my opponent doesn't get exceptionally lucky with his Defiler cannon thing and blow up half the army, what are some good tips on keeping my Scourges alive long enough to deal with the threats? As in what terrain to go for or general positioning?

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 28 2012, 14:04

Refused flank, pick off one unit at a time. I'd be tempted to ground the Rhinos early and leave the Khorny boys foot slogging. Talos might be left out in the cold here, a Ravager would probably be more useful.

Two Defilers could get real annoying, you'll need to roll 5s to pen them. Granted, unless they get lucky with the cannon, you probably won't take much anti-tank fire. Sounds to me like a real chancy matchup.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 15 2012, 09:18

I recently played a game with two units of five Scourges with 2 Blasters apiece. I had the intention of blowing up a pesky Vindicator but instead got ambushed by Terminators (forgot the random charge distant makes them much more effective). So despite losing one unit to the Temrinators, the other went on to kill a ton of Marines.

I'm sure I'm pointing out the obvious to anyone with more games under his belt than myself, but when a 140pt unit can distract a 200pt led by a 200+pt Chapter Master (Lufgt Huron using cheap Forge World rules -_- ) halfway across the board from any important combat, that's a pretty effective unit in my mind. Beautifully modelled yet controversial unit: justified.

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Steffo
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 04:25

Is it possible to run scourge in an aggressive style army?

WIth wyches, reavers, grots all moving flat out to engage with the opponent. Would a unit of haywire scourge be effective because there are plenty of other threats to shoot at so they will survive? or will they fail to contribute to the overall threat saturation of the list, meaning there is one less unit moving flat out to engage the opponent.

With that style of list would deep striking heat lances be effective? Or since they may not deep strike when you need them since that list has one turn where you make your move are they too unreliable? Deep strike just out of range of the heat lance and they do nothing and die not even absorbing that much fire.

Have people had scourge be successful in an aggressive army?
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 04:56

I haven't been finding haywire blasters effective on them, even though it seems like they should be. My play style just doesn't seem to work with it. When being aggressive, deep striking a unit of 10 scourges with 4 heat lance is either amazing or a completed waste of 268 points depending on when you get them, the position of you opponent, and the amount you scatter.

I'll give you 2 examples
1 I move the bulk of my army forward, my opponent deep strikes a small squad of shooty terminators, my scourges come in and reek havoc on the termies and I'm pleased
2 I move the bulk of my army forward, my opponent moves his attack bikes my left flank, my scourges scatter to far to do anything to them, my opponent engages the scourges with the bikes and ties them up for several turns before finishing them off 268 points wasted

That's been how most of scourge experiences have gone, but i haven't tried 2 units of 10 ( as i dont have enough) and a unit of 5 just doesn't have that dead kick i want from them. 18 poisonous shots and 4 ap1 wounding on 2+. Or nearly a 90% chance on destroying a land raider within 9 inches

I think eventually you have to compare Scourges to Reavers and you find that scourges have more fire power but less mobility, far less close combat effectiveness no jink and doesn't ignore dangerous terrain tests, and taking a champion with a venom blade means just losing a shardcarbine.

So they extra fire power comes at a huge cost and once you opponent sees it you need to try to stay out of cc range, with an 18 inch shooting range that's no easy task.

So it's a challenge to use them as oppose to the readers where you can move in shoot and move out or if they start moving towards you turbo out of there and bladevane them in the process combine that with the fact that a 4plus cover is generally better than a 4plus armor and you see that the reasons to take reavers over bikers just keeps getting longer

So you really have to make that extra fire power count to overcome all those advantages you would have gotten from reavers at the same point cost

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Steffo
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 06:24

If only scourge were scoring...

Quote :

Seshiru
I haven't been finding haywire blasters effective on them, even though it seems like they should be.

So it seems you play aggressively, doesn't the rest of your army moving aggressively keep your scourge out of the cross hairs? Allowing them a few turns of pewpew with should surely mean a few vehicles drop.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   How do we best use Scourges? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 04 2012, 06:30

There is one big reason to take scourges over reavers, scourges are far cheaper $ wise Very Happy .
I'm wondering at trying to deep strike 10 scourges though. Wouldn't 2 units of five deep striking be better? Less of a foot print and allows you to threaten multiple targets with deep striking meltas which can be very nast. Humm... I wonder if anyone has thought about taking 6 five man scourge units with heatlances at 2000 and deep striking them all over the place? Are there more effective ways to spend 804 points? without a doubt, but I defy you to find one that looks more awesome on the tabletop! Very Happy
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