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 How do we deal with flyers?

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Allandrel
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 13:42

@Nomic wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
How do they have 2+ cover?

The Aegis Defense Line gives you a 2+ coversave if you go to ground behind it (othervise it gives a 4+ save).

Fearless units can't got to ground. So he only gets a 4+. Which should help! Very Happy

It's a useful rule to know.

When I play with my orks I field squads of 10 lootas behind the agis defence line, specifically 10 because they are not fearless which means they can go to ground for 2+ cover saves and still snap fire their deffguns! Makes them almost unkillable whilst still putting out the dakka!
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 13:49

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Nomic wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
How do they have 2+ cover?

The Aegis Defense Line gives you a 2+ coversave if you go to ground behind it (othervise it gives a 4+ save).

Fearless units can't got to ground. So he only gets 4+. Bye Bye Nrcrons! Very Happy

+1

@Allendrel: Again. Do they all come at once? Can a flyer shoot 20+ targets at a time? Questions, questions... But you understand what I mean right. Stop being so glum chum.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 13:49

Yep, only 4+ so they must decide if G2G or being Fearless... they're quite dead... Alpha Strike them!!!

I'll write something about this in the necron flyer spam post! battle example included!

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 13:51

Could some Necron player not proxy 9 nightscytes and try this flyerspam against a DE player. Would love to see some batreps how this goes.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 13:57

Oh, so they can use Lord from the court, he isn't fearless if i remember correct. Good luck trying to shoot 20 necron warriors in a single phase, behind ADL w/ Comm Link.

And don't forget about Wraiths - still there are points for them.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 15:16

Was just thinking to myself after reading a battle report from Dakka Dakka of a player that posted a huge scythe spam battle (and the ensuing argument about reserves and the 50% rule) but the entire time I was thinking:

What if - I had put Enhanced Aether Sails on (lets say) all my raiders and on the 1st turn (moving 2nd) I sailed my entire force from the lead edge of my deployment zone (12" from the midline or whatever) to his board completely?

Please correct me if I am wrong, that is what this forum is all about, but here is the math:

12" move + EA Sail move 2D6" + 18" Flat out = which is 32" minimum, 42" maximum or a 37" average move. Even with the minimum move of 32" (that is rolling snake eyes on the sail) + the 12" starting deployment you could put yourself within 4" of the opponents board edge in DoW. When 3 or 4 scythes emerge turn 2 and the opponent would have to take some fairly odd strafing runs in order to get you and perhaps force a few of them off the board. Thinking about how broad those scythe models are perhaps only 2 of them will actually get a bead on you and still be able to stay on the board - is this something

Just realizing that the sails can really take you anywhere on the board, even the opponents table edge in one turn is pretty interesting.

In the battle report I read, the necron player only had the lord on the board (1 model) hidden behind some ruins. I would think a fairly mobile force like us could get to him before he got any help. I would figure that unless we kill him by the end of the 1 turn, the game would continue but at least we could get to him by the 2nd turn for sure.

I dunno, I am a 2nd move guy that wants to see the opponents setup and have the last move in a game turn. It would seem that if this tactic rears its head I could counter it by putting my foot squads in reserve in a portal and the other 50% of my assault units on the board in raiders with sails.

Just thinking out loud - what'cha think?

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 15:25

Me thinks we have ANOTHER counter to this so called doom build. No problems here. Sounds great. I'd even try it without sails:

12" deploy + 12" move + 18" flatout = 42" across the board. The scythe must come on with atleast 18" which means most likely he'll fly right over. Even if he can get 1 vehicle, you'll have 8 more in his deploymentzone (depends on pts ofcourse).

The described scenario is ofcourse 100% illegal. Since you múst have 1 HQ + 2 Troop choices, this player must've atleast have 66% in reserve instead of 50%. And that's talking bare minimum.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 16:28

Except its not illegal as flyers must reserve and are thus not bound by the 50% rule.

That said, i seem to remember that the turn a flyer comes on it can't immediatley fly off... will try and find the quote. If this is the case then getting up close means few if any targets and you can simply move around them shooting snap fire until they flee at which point you rush their board edge again

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 17:03

Hijallo, have you ever played 1000pts? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 17:33

@Massaen wrote:
Except its not illegal as flyers must reserve and are thus not bound by the 50% rule.

That said, i seem to remember that the turn a flyer comes on it can't immediatley fly off... will try and find the quote. If this is the case then getting up close means few if any targets and you can simply move around them shooting snap fire until they flee at which point you rush their board edge again

By our beloved dark muses, will people please read... I've had this a couple of times now. We ALL know flyers are not bound to the 50% rule. But the REST of the army is! Let me explain again and read the entire post this time please:

You need 1 HQ and 2 troops. If 1 HQ is on the table, how much is in reserve then?
.
.
.
2 troops, that's correct. How much percent of the army does this make (minus the !@#$% flyers)?
.
.
.
That's correct, more than 50%. So it's absolutely ILLEGAL in each and every way.

As for the fact that you 'remember' flyers that cannot fly immediatly off, please find it. P80 "Aerial Support: Flyers must begin the game as Reserves - ". That's all it says about flyers on pages 80 and 81. P124 "Arriving from reserves: it must move fully onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge". So they CAN move 18" and more. No, they MUST because of the 'zooming' rule. So, wrong again.

Sorry for being so blunt, but... Agh, read first. Get's me a little bit worked up.

Please do not swear. Offending content removed - Cavash.

Edited because Cavash is a sensitive creature. J/k mate. Wink

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 17:41

Well, the battle report I was referring to is at Dakka Dakka, the two guys playing are in my gaming group (jy2 and saberX). They are pretty convinced in their heads that this is legal and with no FAQ or ruling to stop them means I am stuck with their interpretation.

Fine by me, if you want to put a lone lord on the table then go for it as I am going to park 3 or 4 full raiders around that guy no matter where you hide him.

I also believe that he would be forced to put his scythes in key locations to drop his troops ASAP otherwise if I somehow down his flyers (either by my flyers, my quad gun or whatever) he is looking at nobody left on the table again.

And now I just realize I am not in the Necron Flyer thread but the general Flyers one, my bad but still relevant.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 17:44

@Grumpy: What do you mean? Do Necron have some special rule that they are able to hold more than 50% off the table? Where are his 2 troop choices then? In those Scythes I presume?

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 17:55

Maybe you should check your rule book before going off tlronin ... Actually page 80 says exactly that

"in a turn in which a flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board agin"

As for the reserves thing, the force org chart has nothing to do with it. I build an army, I work out what must start in reserves (flyers) and so long as the flyer is dedicated (night scythe) then the unit and transport count as one unit. Page 124 covers this.

So in summary, a necron list with 6 units of 5 warriors in night scythes, 3 doom scythes and a lord are only required to deploy the lord as he counts as a separate unit regardless of whether he has joned a unit for the purposes of the 50% rule.

Rather than going off next time how about politely disagreeing with page references then seeing if maybe you missed something and don't necessarily know it all 100%

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 18:09

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:

Fine by me, if you want to put a lone lord on the table then go for it as I am going to park 3 or 4 full raiders around that guy no matter where you hide him.

It's not too bright for them to put one necron lord on the board. That's blade vane fodder right there. I know he is "everliving" but a 50% chance of ending the game turn 1?!? Madness.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 18:13

Reavers are a very good option with caltrops to take the lord out. You will need 9 Reavers (avg 12 vane and 10 caltrop hits) which vs T5 gives us 2 wounds from the vanes and 6 from the caltrops... Which is just under 3 failed 3+ saves... Works less well against 2+ !!!

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 18:20

@Massaen: Has nothing apparantly to do with rulebooks then but with language. Is THAT was you mean with flying off. I meant like... moving.

The reserves thing has again nothing to do with knowing the rulebook but with the fact that I didn't know night scythes are dedicated transports.

And why can't I go off on yah. Going off on total strangers is what a forum is all about. J/k You're right, but I blame this thread... And society.

Had nothing to do with knowing it all btw. Just that I felt that ppl werent reading eachothers posts.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 21:40

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but ..

If you move all of your units in their side of the board wouldn't it be rather difficult for flyers to zoom and try to hit you?
Lets say you're 1" - 17" off of the edge of their side of the board
They would either be forced to hover or zoom past you and spend 3 turns just trying to hit once before going off the board.

Don't get me wrong I think mass flyers is still a problem to shoot out but still easily avoidable
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 22:00

@SiLKY wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned already but ..

If you move all of your units in their side of the board wouldn't it be rather difficult for flyers to zoom and try to hit you?
Lets say you're 1" - 17" off of the edge of their side of the board
They would either be forced to hover or zoom past you and spend 3 turns just trying to hit once before going off the board.

Don't get me wrong I think mass flyers is still a problem to shoot out but still easily avoidable

@Massaen: This is why I flipped out. Lol. See what I mean now?

@Silky: Seriously, we were júst discussing a few posts above you this exact same tactic. But thank you for your input though...

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 01:50

@Massaen wrote:

As for the reserves thing, the force org chart has nothing to do with it. I build an army, I work out what must start in reserves (flyers) and so long as the flyer is dedicated (night scythe) then the unit and transport count as one unit. Page 124 covers this.

and where does that page say that every player knows every dex's every model? Very Happy Bare with the others...a bit more than with me, for i can take a few punches, duno bout the other though.

@tlronin&SiLKY: i do believe massaen said a flyer can come in facing any direction...have to check...
yep, found it Very Happy
@Massaen wrote:

"in a turn in which a flyer enters the board from
reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the
resulting move will not carry it off the board agin"

with this, i think you have one turn of shooting at best, before he starts to decimate your forces...well, depends on placement highly, but dont worry, it will be mastered in 2-3 months Razz

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 04:42

@tlronin wrote:
@Massaen: Has nothing apparantly to do with rulebooks then but with language. Is THAT was you mean with flying off. I meant like... moving.

Ah, no worries - its hard enough to agree on GW rules sometimes, even worse when language is a barrier as well Rolling Eyes

@tlronin wrote:
The reserves thing has again nothing to do with knowing the rulebook but with the fact that I didn't know night scythes are dedicated transports.

Yep - fair call - i assumed you knew. You are bang on should an IG army try and bring 9 vendetta then they hve to deploy 50% of other units on the table.

@tlronin wrote:
And why can't I go off on yah. Going off on total strangers is what a forum is all about. J/k You're right, but I blame this thread... And society.

Laughing Laughing Laughing

@tlronin wrote:
Had nothing to do with knowing it all btw. Just that I felt that ppl werent reading eachothers posts.

@tlronin wrote:
@Massaen: This is why I flipped out. Lol. See what I mean now?

Oh i get that... since 6th dropped its been frustrating for me as well!


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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 05:21

Just had a chance to catch up on the thread! Very interesting.

Two things: (1) a comment on the debate about units starting in reserves and (2) anecdotal answers to the OP.

(1) I have discussed this in other threads, and I am sure some people will be sick of hearing it, but it's worth mentioning again. My locale here (including local tournament organizers, etc) have taken the stance that dedicated transport fliers are not wholly exempt from the 50% rule. The rule as it reads is actually two separate rules: a unit and its DT count as one unit. A unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. However, a unit that takes a DT can choose to start separate from its transport (therefore it is not required to start in reserve-- 'nid spores being the exception). So, the unit and the DT still count as one choice as per the rule, but because the whole choice is not forced into reserve, it is not discounted wholly. Something for consideration.

(2) Pure anecdote time! Had a chance to speak with someone who ran into the pure flyer list (he faced 7 or 8 fliers in total, not the full 9). He said that is opponent held off until T5 deploying his troops, and that the game was pretty boring. Essentially he plopped units in cover all across the board, kept the skimmers moving, picked up stealth when he could, and turbo-boosted everywhere. The fliers were able to put out full firepower for about 3 turns, which he survived due to the cover saves mentioned above, and was able to pounce on the min squads with what he had remaining. Won 3-2 (one objective v. first blood and deployment zone). So yah... there ya go. Its possible.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 06:20

Indeed, RAW there is nothing stating that the unit transported in the flyer doesn't count against the limitation (barring a situation where it must be transported in one, like Tyranid drop pod spores). Units and their dedicated transports count as a single unit for the purpose of reserves, so if you have an army consisting of 6 Venom squads and 2 Ravagers, you can put 4 Venoms in reserve (if the Venoms and their passagers would count as separate units, you could put up to 3 Venoms and 1 Ravager in reserve). Units that must start the game in reserves don't count against that limitation, so if you added a Razorwing to that army, you could still reseve 4 units. Similarly, Necron Nightscythes don't count for reserves so thay can put all of them in reseves. However, nowhere does it state that just because the transport doesn't count for reserves, the unit inside also doesn't (provided it could also start on the board, which most units can't. You don't have to deploy them with the transport after all). So if we have a Necron army with 6 Scythe squads, he can reserve all of the flyers. However, as nothing states the Warriors transported in them stop counting towards the reserve limit, he has to leave 3 of the flyers empty and deploy the units inside on the board.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 09:40

i might still have a chance, thank you Roc Smile *puts anti-poison in his cup Wink
so basically, not wor for word, but what i said on the prev page about reserving 50% is about true...just not for the flyers and the dt flyers...darn...

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 10:52

I see this as a unit transported as pod or flayer is not counted "for these purposes", these purposes are "working out how many other units may do so". So yeah whole army in drop pods is possible, even with no models on board.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 21 2012, 12:30

By the way, if we really want to take some dedicated AA power that could come in the form of Aegis Defense line with Quad Gun emplacement and Vibro-Cannon Battery from Eldar Allies.

Vibro cannons auto-glancing flyers right now.

I remember times of old, Vibro-cannon limit. That might return.
They are practically the only weapons that can fire into close-combat with any amount of precision.
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