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 How do we deal with flyers?

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Farmer
Hellion
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PostSubject: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 12:38

How are we supposed to deal with armies with 4-9 flyers? apart from taking are own which are terrible for the points.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 13:06

yes, but consider that they have to be in reserve at the start of the game, and you cant resreve more than half of your amry, so one way or a nother, there wont be 9 vendettas any more. Most likely 3-4. And what do we have? Allies with flyers? Correct. So 3 of our own flyers, and 1 from the allys HS.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 13:14

Massed Dark Lance firepower - BS1 is a long shot, but not impossible. Twin Linking would be nice too but.....

Think of the poor 'nids and Daemons - you're not allowed to assault flyers that are Zooming, so count yourself lucky that we have at least something to minimize the damage.

Anyway, if opponent wants to spam flyers then he mustn't have much deployed on the table, so you should be able to waste all his troops/scoring units quite T1/T2, and as along as your moving, your're getting cover saves to any return fire.


Last edited by 1++ on Mon Jul 16 2012, 13:47; edited 1 time in total
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 13:32

@Enfernux wrote:
yes, but consider that they have to be in reserve at the start of the game, and you cant resreve more than half of your amry, so one way or a nother, there wont be 9 vendettas any more. Most likely 3-4. And what do we have? Allies with flyers? Correct. So 3 of our own flyers, and 1 from the allys HS.

False.
1) You can't reserve more than half with the exclusion of those unit who HAVE TO be in reserve (i.e. flyers!)
2) The ally detachment slot uses your own FOC slots. So you can't have 4 HS. You can however ally with someone with Flyers in the FS.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 13:45

allies use MY FOC?! The heck?! Could someone not at work and has the RB near clarify on this pls.

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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 13:53

No, it's not. The Ally section on the FOC is an entirely seperate section, as it's a seperate Detachment. Your Primary Detachment has the FOC we all know and love, while the Allied Detachment is in addition to that. Each box on the chart is its own selection, they're not shared. What made you think they were?

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 13:54

Don't have to rulebook on me right now, but with Allies IIRC you take 1 HQ and 1 Troop which unlocks 1 Elite/1 Fast/1 Heavy.

Edit: Aww, ninja'd. Razz

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 14:07

thats what i remembered, but dont have the book to check, thanks for verifying Smile
on the reserves: you must reserve them, but you cant reserve over half your army. So either dont bring half of them, or dont bring half of them - in flyers Razz

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 14:16

@Enfernux wrote:
thats what i remembered, but dont have the book to check, thanks for verifying Smile
on the reserves: you must reserve them, but you cant reserve over half your army. So either dont bring half of them, or dont bring half of them - in flyers Razz


Unit's that have to start in reserve don't count towards the 50%, now reread it if you don't accept that, but stop with your unfunny way of spraying superficial knowledge around.



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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 14:22

The allies don't give you extra slots, there are no numbers in the slots of the allies (while you have the numbers for the primary detachment), so you use your own. You gain extra foc only with a secondary detachment.

The numbers are: 2 hq, 6 troops, 3 FA, 3 Elite, 3 HS. This is the primary detachment, and you can fill with your own army or with an ally. The ally have 1 mandatory HQ and troop and you have the optional 1 FA, 1 Elite, 1 HS, 1 Troop. But the detachment numbers don't change.
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 14:44

So, the Allied Detachment is the Primary Detachment? No, they're two different things. The FOC is organised so that you've got the compulsory Primary Detachment, and then the optional Fortification and Allied Detachment. I suppose you'll also state that you can't take Fortifications then, as their optional FOC selection should be part of the Primary Detachment, which gives no options to take Fortifications.

Fortifications are the precedence that an optional detachment is not part of the Primary Detachment. For every Primary Detachment you can take, you can take one Fortification, and one Allied Detachment, in addition to the Primary Detachment. If they were both chosen from the same FOC, they would be marked as such. Instead, they are marked as entirely different things.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 15:07

Aroshamash is right, there's even a picture on page 109 that explains how it works

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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 15:09

I can see where the confusion comes from, as there's no phrase that explicitly states "the Allied Detachment is taken in addition to the FO slots from the Primary Detachment", but if we use that logic, then we couldn't take Fortifications, as they're not within the Primary Detachment. Ergo, the Allied Detachment is in addition to the Primary, just as Fortifications are.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 15:11

I concur. It's fully explained with a picture and everything. No language needed. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 15:34

On top of just using our own flyers (which I feel are totally worth the price of admission), placement is really important. I've found it quite easy to stifle flyers using model movement (bless the new fast, skimmer flat out rules) because they always have to move 18" in zoom mode and can only make one 90 degree turn. In other words, if an enemy has one flyer on the board, if I get all my units closer than 18" to it or anywhere behind it, it will have to pass them by (the only danger being if they have bombs, but they're usually one-shot). The only way for them to get around this is to enter hover mode...but then we can just blow them up like normal.

Think of it like the Knight in chess. Really good piece because you can move through anything. However, it can also be negated by being in any of the squares it physically can't move into.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 15:39

not played any 1 who spams flyers but i think that since they have to come in from reserve and the way they are limited in there movment you can work out that they will be doing most of there atacking on turns 2, 4 and 6 asumeing they roll a 3 on turn 2. so if you move your army about the battle feild knowing this then on turn 3 they will have had to have flowen past your main army and ither have to turn around or go back into reserve and then by the time turn 4 comes about you will then most probably be locked into close combat or given your army a good cover save so they are prity inafective
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 15:50

On another, expanded, note. I recommend highly that anti-flyers be in your army. I played a few multiplayer matches, usually xenos (yay) versus space marines (boo). Each time there were an abundance of flyers with little resistance to them, all my flyers survived and totally outdid their point cost.

One game teamed me with an Ork player (with dakka jets and burna bomma), we tabled a Blood Angels/Black Templars (with a Blessed Hull Land Raider) in 3 rounds because the only thing they had to kill our flyers was the BA Stormraven, which was cut down on the first turn it entered by my Voidravens.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 16:40

Sleepy as i said, i am at work and dont have the RB with me, but i was hoping Smile
Well at least i was half right, thats better than all wrong Razz And i WOULD read them just now if i would have my book. But as i said again. I DONT! Hope thats enough for ppl to stob bothering me about it untill i get home. O:)

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Farmer
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 16:42

In other words its ive got to spend money on flyers or allied flyers to be competitive this edition or else im going to get blown off the table Rolling Eyes
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 16:52

Farmer, depends...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 16:54

@Farmer wrote:
In other words its ive got to spend money on flyers or allied flyers to be competitive this edition or else im going to get blown off the table Rolling Eyes

Did you not realise that new rules are made primarily for the purpose of selling models?

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 18:49

With 6E, game is broken.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 19:32

The game is fine. Please stick to the topic at hand.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 19:45

@Gobsmakked wrote:
The game is fine. Please stick to the topic at hand.

No, it isn't. Because of what we are discussing in this thread.

Because of silly flyer spam w/ scoring units inside and "disembark-at-any-point" rule. Noone have _reliable_ way to win against such a list. May be it'll be fixed later, but on current state 6Ed looks like bad joke.

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: How do we deal with flyers?   How do we deal with flyers? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 20:10

Don't hate the game, hate the club that's smashing your face.

In other words, why don't you just refuse to play against necron player that play such a list? or how about you tailor your list to something that kills everything he has on the table at turn 1 and win the game in 10mins?

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